Evidence of meeting #24 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Russ Cameron  President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association
Sharon Maloney  Executive Director, Polytechnics Canada
Richard Paton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chemical Producers' Association
David Podruzny  Vice-President, Business and Economics and Board Secretary, Canadian Chemical Producers' Association

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Members, could we ask you to take your seats?

We are here at the 24th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. The orders for today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are to continue our study on the challenges facing the Canadian manufacturing sector.

We have three witnesses before us today, each for forty minutes. I would encourage witnesses and members to be brief in their presentations and their questions and answers.

I would just remind members at the outset that if they have any suggestions for the week of November 20 to 24 with respect to options for site visits or for witnesses, to get those into the clerk as soon as possible. We have a full committee meeting Thursday morning from 9:00 to 9:45 to discuss the work plan for the week of November 20.

Right now we will go to our first witness. This witness will appear until 4:10. I understand he's come all the way from British Columbia to be with us here. He is Russ Cameron, president of the Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association.

Welcome, Mr. Cameron. You have about forty minutes, so in order to allow as much time as possible for questions and answers, we'd ask you to try to keep under ten minutes for your presentation, and then we'll go to questions and answers from the members present.

Mr. Cameron, go ahead, please.

October 31st, 2006 / 3:30 p.m.

Russ Cameron President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

It should be under ten. I'll just read this and then have the questions.

I thank you for inviting the Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association, which I will refer to as the ILRA, to appear before your committee. Our 120 member companies represent the majority of British Columbia's non-tenured forest products sector. Non-tenured means that we do not harvest public timber that has been administratively priced by provincial governments. We pay market price in competition with the Americans and the rest of the world for all of our input wood fibre. We are small, family-owned companies employing over 4,000 employees. Annually we do $2.5 billion in sales on four billion board feet. We sawmill; we remanufacture; and we wholesale. Our markets are all over the world, but our primary market is the United States.

The constitution of the ILRA directs our group to maximize the socio-economic benefit per cubic metre of Canadian timber harvested by promoting business conditions that result in the further processing of wood products in Canada. We are the only growth opportunity in the forest sector, as we are the companies that employ more Canadians to do more work to less wood fibre by adding value to it. We're a collection of Canadian entrepreneurs who are used to having hurdles placed in front of us. In one way or another we always seem to find our way around or over supply problems, currency fluctuations, market swings, foreign competition, and the like.

Today, my members want me to tell you about a new hurdle that we may not be able to get around. As you know, a group of our competitors in the United States, known as the Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports, has used the U.S. Department of Commerce to impose conditions upon us to make us less competitive in the U.S. market. We have jumped this hurdle before and we knew that we could do it again. The trick is to survive to see the victory. Most of us did survive, although just barely, and we ultimately won this fight on all fronts. Even the U.S. government attempts to circumvent the NAFTA and WTO victories were thwarted by the U.S. Court of International Trade, which recently ordered the withdrawal of the duties and the return of all the deposits. Not only that, we finally had the coalition on the ropes. They've lost half of their original membership, as measured by their ability to fund future cases. They even had to resort to recruiting small timber landowners and remanufacturers with the promise of money via the Byrd Amendment, but now they have lost even that tool.

With yet again no return on investment, the prospect of the coalition's being able to launch and fund a fifth softwood lumber case was looking very poor for them. Even if they could get a petition together and funded, it is doubtful if they could ever get another finding of injury and a punitive level of CVD or anti-dumping. They had just confirmed to NAFTA that the actual CVD rate should have been zero all along, and they can no longer use zeroing in their calculations of anti-dumping.

We also must remember that the U.S. government is seeking to be the big guy in this series of binational free trade agreements instead of being just another name plate and a chair at the WTO. As you know, they are in the midst of negotiating a bunch of these FTAs. The administration's appetite for another round of softwood lumber is waning, as they know that these other countries have been watching them try to skate around their NAFTA obligations while wondering what, if the U.S. disrespects their agreements with their friends, they will do to them.

This in itself begs the question of why anybody would make a deal with someone who does not freely abide by the one they already have. But Canada has done just that, and we now face a hurdle that we may not be able to pass. The Canadian government has joined forces with the coalition and the U.S. government in their fight against us. They seek to moot our legal victories. They are taking our money from us and using it to provide funding and a return on investment to our U.S. competitors. They are imposing commercially unworkable business conditions on us. They are taking over the role of the U.S. Department of Commerce, ensuring that our products will be uncompetitive in the United States.

The objective of the U.S. coalition in this agreement was to have our government impose taxes and quotas upon us, which would make us uncompetitive in the U.S. market. Getting their legal fees paid and a return on investment was just a bonus. With Canada's help they have succeeded. The vast majority of our U.S. competitors use U.S.-grown wood fibre to produce duty-, tax-, and quota-free, value-added products. We cannot compete with them if our federal government taxes the products that we make in Canada for export to our primary market.

It must also be remembered that we are not the only country producing value-added wood products for sale in the United States. We cannot compete in the U.S. market with countries such as China, when our government taxes our exports and their government does not tax theirs.

We had been suffering under a 10.5% duty that allowed us to ship as much as we wanted. Instead of negotiating a deal that led to free trade, or taking our legal victory--paying no duty and getting all our money back--the Government of Canada has apparently decided that our industry is better off being forced to pay 15% to 22% and to give away a billion of our dollars to our competitors. This is to ensure that they will be sufficiently rewarded this time, which will virtually guarantee a next time.

Even the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance, which is the umbrella group for Canada's major forest companies, recognizes this. On Friday they filed a response to the U.S. Court of Appeals opposing the U.S. and Canadian governments' efforts to have the coalition's constitutional challenge of NAFTA chapter 19 vacated. In supporting the coalition, the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance stated:

While we vehemently dispute Petitioner's baseless characterizations of the reasons for the softwood lumber dispute and the conduct of the Canadian parties, we do agree that there is almost certain to be future lumber litigation initiated by the Petitioner, and the parties inevitably will end up before NAFTA BNPs again in the future.

Given that this agreement makes another case almost certain, they're saying let's find out now if it is worth bothering with NAFTA, or maybe we should just go straight to the Court of International Trade.

The ability to even do business under this agreement is very questionable. Depending on a composite price, there are eight different possible tax percentages and three different values for calculating it.There is the possibility of actually turning the shipment around if one of three different shipment levels has been exceeded. And it could apply either regionally or individually. These tax rates or quotas will change every month. One of the taxes will even be retroactive.

Our members are extremely discouraged. Let me read a comment from one of them to illustrate. You need to know what a “surge mechanism” is first. The 10.5% duty is now a 15% tax. But if a region ships over its quota in a given month, the tax goes to 22.5%. That's called the “surge mechanism”.

So here is his comment. I've received many, but this one's very illustrative:

The new fundamentals are just starting to be realized by most people. I just had my first experience. My last cut made a very small profit if the tax is 15%. I lose if we surge. The interesting part about this is that it feels kind of like the lottery. I will find out next month if I won or lost. Further, I find that it leads to a very interesting business decision. Do I double down? Repeat the process and double my profits, or double my losses? I don't know if I am making money or losing money while trying to make this decision.

We can't do business like this. We buy wood fibre at arm's-length market prices, and we manufacture it to serve niche markets with custom products. It takes time. We cannot even quote our customers if we do not know at what level our government will tax our shipments when they're ready to ship or if they will retroactively want more tax at a later date.

The uncertainty and lack of stability inherent in this agreement is already resulting in questions from our increasingly nervous bankers. Our members believe their already stressed businesses will suffer further negative impacts if this agreement proceeds. They believe it will result in further decreases in Canadian value-added processing and that there will be further employment losses and business failures.

The Independent Lumber Remanufacturers Association urges you to recommend convening international trade committees again, so that the parties affected by Bill C-24 may appear as witnesses and express their views on this pending legislation.

We realize that sessions were held earlier in this process, as we appeared at them, but things have changed a great deal since that time. For example, we were originally assured that all our interest would be returned to us, but now Canada will take some of it too. We were originally told in writing that we would get all our money back if we elected not to sell to the EDC at a discount, but now Canada is imposing a special charge and will take that money from us too. We were originally told that 95% support was required, but when it was not there, Canada changed this requirement. We were originally told that all litigation must be dropped, but when it was not dropped, the Government of Canada changed that requirement too.

We have yet to even see the much-changed final agreement that the GOC plans to force upon us, and yet we are currently operating under it. We now have experience with this agreement and what it will do to our industry. We need the opportunity to relate this new knowledge to the trade committee.

At the July 31 trade committee's meeting, a motion by Mr. Julian was passed to take the committee to the affected parties and hold meetings in B.C., Quebec, and Ontario.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, Mr. Cameron.

3:40 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

This has not occurred, and we ask you to recommend that the House follow through on this motion before passing Bill C-24.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay. Thank you.

Monsieur Lapierre.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cameron, welcome to the committee.

If I hear you well, you don't really have much time for that deal. You know, we were told that the vast majority of the industry was happy and that they were celebrating. Even today we were told that they were all having a Halloween party tonight because they got $900 million back. So this doesn't seem to be your experience.

Were you consulted directly by the government? Has your group been in direct contact during the whole process of these negotiations?

3:40 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

No. I would say that we have not been consulted to the extent that we wanted to be consulted, either federally or provincially. Like I say, we're the small, non-tenured guys. I don't even know if the remanufacturers were on the map until five or six years ago. People are aware of this now, but we don't quite fit the bill on that.

We were sent drafts of things that generally had already occurred for comment, and I can't say that we had any success when we commented back on getting anything changed. It seemed to us that there was an overriding desire to have a deal at whatever cost.

We would say this doesn't work; this has to be changed. We'd get an answer back: Yes, well, you know we asked that, but they said no, so too bad.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

What will this deal do to the employment level among your member companies? Are you going to be worse off or better off than the status quo before, when we were having a lot of litigation and so on, but nothing was solved? How do you qualify your status today?

3:40 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

Yes, we're going to be far worse off. We took our first hit under the softwood lumber agreement of 1996, when there was quota, and our quota was insufficient. But at least at that time, if you had more shipments to make, you could pay 2.5% or $50 a thousand. You'd get 2.5%, then $100 a thousand after that, and keep on shipping.

We took a really severe hit this time around, but that's okay. Our guys say we'll stick it out. We'll pay 27% to see this thing through and beat the Americans, because we don't think they'll get another case together if we actually finish this thing.

Yes, we took quite a beating, and employment has been down about 25% among our members. Our shipments into the U.S. are down about 30%.

What this agreement does is kind of institutionalize the penalities the Department of Commerce has been imposing on us for the benefit of the coalition. It takes a 10.5% tax duty or duty anti-dumping thing, which we've been paying, and makes it 15%. The prospect is there of making it 22.5%. And if we ever go onto a quota system, God help the little guys, because there is no mechanism to ship one more board foot than the quota you have. By definition, you know that you're not going to have enough quota.

There's no more saying we'll just pay an extra $50 and we can get it across. If you have order for 110,000 board feet and you have 109,000 board feet, you don't ship it, or you leave that 1,000 feet sitting in your yard.

It's really bad, and we're going to see more business failures. People are just going to give up, people who were hanging on by their fingernails through this fight. We were assured that we were going to finish it, and we didn't. A lot of people are just going to wrap it up, and a lot of them are going to be taken down.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

If I hear you well, then what you are telling this committee is that in all practicality we have to reconsider some of the parts of that deal, or what? Because you know this thing has kind of been rammed through. And practically as an industry, you haven't seen the final copy of the deal and you're supposed to apply it?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

No. As far as I know, they're still negotiating some of the clauses in it. As far as I know, the agreement had the 95% required, then apparently there was a change on the 12th, then there's the litigation, and that's still going on. As far as I know, the Court of International Trade has not even seen the final copy referred to in the motion the U.S. government put before them, and they gave the government eight to ten days to come up with a copy. I haven't seen it. I've seen drafts, lots of them.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Okay. But how are you supposed to be able to implement it and respect it?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

The thing has gone so fast that nobody really knows how to do it. The companies operating under the thing, there's supposed to be a first-mill provision in there. Some of them have received the nod that yes, you're a first mill, and other guys have no idea whether they are or not. Do they calculate their tax on entered value or first mill? It's evolving. The litigation hasn't even been withdrawn; there's still an injunction on the liquidation of the funds from the first year; that's before CIT. The coalition is still challenging the validity of the NAFTA chapter 19.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

We'll go now to Monsieur Crête.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cameron, with respect to the implementation of the agreement, there are two options: option A and option B—

Do you have access to simultaneous interpretation?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

Sorry, I must be on the wrong channel or something. How do I get this in English?

Number one, okay.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

According to the agreement with the Americans, option A and option B are both possible.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Are you getting it? Are you hearing any of this?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

Yes, I got it. I can hear, yes.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Can you hear me?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

I'm not getting a translation.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

There is no simultaneous interpretation.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

They're both on.

Okay?

3:45 p.m.

President, Independent Lumber Remanufacturers' Association

Russ Cameron

Yes. I'm hearing one, two, yes. Great.