Evidence of meeting #48 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was risq.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Meldrum  Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel
Wendy Sol  Administrative Vice-President, CEP Western Regions, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Michel Vanier  Chief Executive Officer, Réseau d'informations scientifiques du Québec
Daniel Krewski  Professor and Director, McLaughlin Centre for Population Health Risk Assessment, Institute of Population Health, University of Ottawa

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We will call the 48th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are here today continuing our study on the deregulation of the telecommunications sector.

We have three sessions—two half-hour ones and an hour session to finish up.

Members, we do have to be in the House by 5:45, so we will do our best to keep everything on time.

Our first witness today—for half an hour—is from SaskTel, Mr. John Meldrum, vice-president, corporate counsel and regulatory affairs.

Since we are limited in time, Mr. Meldrum, let's go right to your opening statement of up to five minutes, and then we will go to questions from members.

Welcome.

3:30 p.m.

John Meldrum Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

Thank you for the opportunity to reappear before the committee.

Today, I would like to focus on three areas that have come to dominate the committee’s deliberations.

First, we would like to provide our views on how competition is unfolding in rural Saskatchewan.

The cable companies who have appeared before you would have you believe that if they don’t provide local competition, there will be no other alternatives available to consumers. They argue that if you want local competition in rural areas, the CRTC decision can’t be changed.

Unfortunately, this view is completely unfounded and self-serving. For example, they ignore cellular service. Cellular substitution is growing each and every day. Increasingly, people across the country are using cellular service as their only voice service. This is especially the case among younger people and those of lower socio-economic backgrounds. Even in Saskatchewan it will hit 5% this year.

Moreover, complete telephone number portability is scheduled to be in place March 14. This will allow any number to be ported to any other service or service provider. In other words, a rural customer will be able to take SaskTel's wireline telephone service, disconnect it, and have that number transferred to their Rogers or Telus cellular phone.

I cannot emphasize this next point enough: the key to competition in the future, particularly in rural areas, will be access to high-speed Internet. In Saskatchewan, SaskTel covers 85% of the population with high-speed Internet service. Small towns and villages have high-speed Internet, which gives them access to myriad VoIP providers, such as Vonage and Skype.

More importantly, many Saskatchewan residents and businesses don’t have to rely solely on SaskTel for their broadband access; there are cable alternatives. But equally important are the growing number of wireless high-speed providers. For these companies, and others, the new wireless technologies are providing opportunities to compete cost-effectively, opportunities that were not possible in the past. In Saskatchewan, for example, there is a company called Yourlink, which has entered into a strategic alliance with the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool to put high-speed wireless on their cement grain elevators. They have a large number of coverage areas, and as part of their high-speed offering they also have VoIP service.

So while the cable companies may think they are the be-all and end-all, they are just one of many competitive alternatives, even in rural Saskatchewan.

The second point I would like to respond to is the assertion that rural residents will face higher prices and inferior service if the local forbearance decision is overruled. In Saskatchewan, deregulated markets have simply not translated into rural residents lagging behind their urban cousins. In the case of long distance, all Saskatchewan residents have benefited from a number of competitive alternatives, resulting in rate reductions and innovative calling plans. And neither have we distinguished between urban and rural customers in our cellular service; all of our calling plans are available everywhere, without any restriction based on where you live. We are not aware either of any of our cellular competitors differentiating between rural and urban customers.

Put simply, Saskatchewan rural areas have benefited from urban competition in a deregulated marketplace. And I would note for the committee that we have committed to retaining the lowest rural rates in the country.

Finally, there has been much discussion before the committee about the competitive landscape and the impact of regulation on various industry players. For SaskTel, the fundamental issue is a level playing field.

In my handout is a snapshot of the incumbent cable companies’ regulatory framework as compared with what we face. The differences are so stark, you’d think that cable and telecommunications had two different regulators. But just to zero in on the issue of win-backs, all limitations for the cable industry have been eliminated, except for multi-unit dwellings. While there aren’t a lot of tall buildings in rural Saskatchewan in the first place, those restrictions only apply to Shaw in Saskatchewan. And while various cable companies have warned the committee that we will win back customers before their phone service is even installed, taking such a course of action is clearly prohibited by the CRTC.

Cable companies, on the other hand, are not under any of these restrictions, and as soon as they receive a call from a prospective lost customer, they can and do win them back with very lucrative offers before our television service is installed. Do we like it? No, but that’s what competition is all about.

In closing, the telecom policy review panel recommended major regulatory reform in Canada: reliance on market forces; letting consumers determine the winners and losers; and assuring fairness among competitors. In our respectful opinion, all of the reform initiatives embarked upon to date are consistent with those fundamental principles.

I'll be pleased to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Meldrum.

We'll go immediately to questions, starting with Mr. McTeague for six minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Meldrum, thank you for being here. I'm sorry you weren't able to be here before. We understand the difficulties with the weather.

I don't have the benefit of all the pages of your report. I do, however, recall your original presentation, and you've had the benefit of responding to at least one complainant here. As far as what this would mean is concerned, I'm interested in how you would see the competition landscape in an area such as Regina, where you've clearly had a very long-standing advantage over virtually everybody, including cable. But recognizing that you, at this point, as a crown....

You're no longer a crown corporation, are you?

3:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

We're still a crown corporation.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Interesting.

With the current monopoly you have in some regions, some of the urban centres—and I notice you've gone to rural—with 100% market share, I'm interested in seeing how it's possible, under this current proposal of deregulating immediately without any due regard for any degree of forbearance, not to see the concerns of those who are complaining about the tremendous advantage your company has to begin with.

3:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

Certainly the first comment I would make is that being forborne is not automatic. It doesn't occur on day one. You have to actually apply to the commission. The commission will have some sort of a proceeding to determine whether or not to forbear in that particular jurisdiction, and I think it's expected that it could take between four and six months.

In the case of Saskatoon, where the competitor has been offering service for a much longer period of time, they are approaching 5% of the market in terms of loss over the last three months. They're making decent headway, I would say, with very competitive offers in the marketplace.

In the case of Regina, where you asked about Access Communications, they just recently announced that within the last month they are actively advertising, selling, and marketing, and we have no reason to believe they won't experience the same kinds of success that Shaw has experienced.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I'm troubled by what you say, because you're saying that in four months—in effect, the time it takes for a decision on forbearance to actually take place—someone is going to be able to sink a number of dollars into this and equate what you've had for virtually a hundred years. Do you not think that's an unfair advantage you have?

I can well understand that this decision by the minister, which is in fact cherry-picking of the TPR report, which you alluded to....

We'd like to see the entire report implemented. Would you have a problem with that, before the order of forbearance?

3:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

I would have a problem with that. The length of time it would take to implement the entire report would I think be counted in a matter of years as opposed to a matter of months. I think the current state of affairs in terms of forbearance and the decision of the CRTC is such that there is a need for the Government of Canada to act.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Let me shift gears. You've mentioned two other things.

Your first point is that you saw cellular phones as an alternative to...and you cited 5%. I would argue that that is not an alternative, and I suspect that the other 95%, many of whom might have cellphones, are using both, not the same.... So there's complementarity as opposed to substitution, which is an important rule that has clearly been thrown out by this particular decision, but I'm not surprised.

On your second point, as to the question of rolling out in rural areas--the question of essential facilities--as you know, the proceedings have not been completed, as they relate to DSL and Ethernet tariffs. Wouldn't it be better, in your view, to be consistent on the policy direction, to wait for the final decision before proceeding with forbearance, before this important study, this important order, takes place? It sounds like we're putting the cart before the horse, and you're advocating that, I take it.

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

In terms of the first question, the 5% number is total substitution. Those are people who do not have land lines, people who've decided that a wireless phone, a cellular, fulfills all their needs and they abandon their land line completely. As my son would say, “My house doesn't need a phone; I need a phone.” So he has not had telephone service installed in his house.

In terms of the essential facilities proceedings, again, we're some months away from a decision in that respect. The forbearance appeal is before the federal cabinet. A number of appellants have made their appeals to the federal cabinet, and we're hopeful that the federal cabinet will rule one way or another on those appeals.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Are your wireless rates the same as everyone else?

I take it SaskTel does not have a wireless company, does it?

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

Yes, we do. We provide wireless service.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

So you're in the business of wireless. Are your rates more competitive than the other wireless companies?

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

We have a very competitive cellular marketplace in Saskatchewan. We do have the lion's share of the market, which means that the competitors can launch plans in Saskatchewan without regard for their base of customers.

Over the Christmas period, Telus had a $15 plan in the Saskatchewan market. Today, in terms of Rogers, their Fido brand has a $20 offer in the marketplace. So we see some very competitive rates and services in the cellular market in Saskatchewan, perhaps even more so than in other areas of the country.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Chair, I'll be interested to hear from the Conservatives how they rectify crown corporations competing directly with the private sector. I'll leave that to them in just a few minutes.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Meldrum.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

I'll go now to Monsieur Crête.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sir, you state in your brief that there is no distinction between urban and rural customers, that there is strong competition, including for cellular service.

I do not know if this is due to topographical features but in Quebec and the Maritimes the quality of cellular service in rural areas is not at all at the same level as in urban areas.

In my riding, whenever I go downhill I lose the signal and I find it again when I reach the top of the hill on the other side.

Have you been able to solve that problem in your area?

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

Yes, in Saskatchewan we do have the advantage of being flat.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

That's just southern Saskatchewan.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

It sounds like a joke but it is not. In Quebec, at least, we need much more sophisticated equipment. For example, we decided to request bids from five companies in order to provide cellular service in the Témiscouata area. All five companies answered that it would be too costly. Furthermore, with the deregulation proposed by the minister, I believe companies will be even less interested in serving us because it will be a race for the most profitable business.

So as long as satellite phone service will not be easily accessible in these communities, these people, these small transport companies, will be faced with a major problem.

Do you believe geography alone allowed you to solve this problem? Do you think there might be some other problem? Is it because of faulty management practices that we are unable to achieve the same results as you?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

I think it would be both.

I didn't intend to be facetious, either, in terms of the fact that Saskatchewan is flat, but it does give you much better coverage when you don't have deep valleys, and in some cases, the trees tend to soak up the signal. Again, southern Saskatchewan doesn't have a lot of trees. So geography certainly has been part and parcel.

Again, perhaps it comes back to our crown corporation status that we do focus on public policy initiatives. One of our initiatives has been to expand cellular service deep into rural areas. We cover 95% of the population with cellular, and we have spent tens of millions of dollars making those investments to improve coverage. Even today there are people who will say there are gaps and holes. We have further expansion plans under way for this year. We will be putting in another 30 to 50 towers to provide service to the people out there.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

You recognize there are areas in Quebec where cellular service cannot compete because it would take a huge infrastructure in order to serve that market. Therefore, thousands of people in some areas are reliant on land lines or satellite phones, which are very costly.

Cellular technology will not be available unless somebody builds towers. But no one will make such an investment if natural competitive forces rule.

Do you agree that conditions in some areas may require different practices? So if we rush into total deregulation, do you agree this could give rise to major problems?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Counsel and Regulatory Affairs, SaskTel

John Meldrum

Yes, for sure. The differences among the regions are substantial, and that's one of the things we face with the CRTC all the time. We end up with one-size-fits-all and it ends up not fitting anybody, or certainly it doesn't end up fitting Saskatchewan. So I would agree that certainly to the extent to which the CRTC and the Government of Canada can yet add the issue of the regions and the differences that exist, all power to them.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I have the feeling that now that the minister has placed our hand in the grinder our whole body is getting dragged in.

If we accept the fact that there is a proposal to deregulate the local telephone service and another to increase the fines administered by the Competition Bureau, which is the purpose of Bill C-41... This is from the big report. Those are two of the steps and you say they are going in the right direction.

In your view, is it possible to take those steps without being concerned that the other measures will not follow? Last week, the minister told us he had prepared no legislation to amend the act. So it is very possible that we will make a few changes to the local service directive, if it ever happens, and that the rest will be delayed forever.

Do you not think it is dangerous to go ahead with these two steps only and to leave the rest up in the air? Is it essential to have the other part, the reform of the Telecommunications Act?