Industry Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Let's let Mr. Williams respond quickly.

[Russell Williams]

In my old political life I think we never inferred what intention was from other sides, so I would ask Jim to do the same.

I am very interested in finding ways to make sure that this law is fully tested. I don't accept that we haven't gone through the process and we throw up our arms and say let's go back to rewriting it. I don't believe that's the right solution.

So I do believe that we have to build on all the things that we're doing in terms of access and partnerships with various funds. I believe we should be partnering with health care networks. But I also believe that we should fully test this bill all the way through before we rewrite it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much.

It is really interesting to have this type of a panel in front of us and I really appreciate it.

We just went through a manufacturing study where one of the key issues was the protection of intellectual property. I don't think there is anyone around this table who would not want to make sure we protect intellectual property.

What we're trying to do is make sure that we protect it, I think, and yet put some vehicle in place so that the medicines that are required in countries can get to them in countries where sometimes the legislation to protect that is not to the same standard that we have, the same concern. That's more of a statement than a question, because I'm sure everyone would agree with that.

I want to follow up with Mr. Kay. The 30-day process for a voluntary licence, have you finished that?

[Jack Kay]

We did apply for voluntary licences. It was complicated because of this triple-combination product. There are four different companies that have patents on the components. So we attempted to get a voluntary licence and we got bogged down.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You've never gone through that 30-day process to get to the compulsory licence, to make application.

[Jack Kay]

That is correct.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You haven't gone through the process, but you're saying it takes more than 30 days.

[Jack Kay]

It really comes down to the fact that Apotex is in the business of making money for its shareholders. We have decided to do this because the government passed the legislation. We tried to work through the legislation because MSF came to us with a bona fide order for the product.

I am not going to tie up my resources, our legal departments, in order to go through the process of trying to get a compulsory licence, because it's just far too complicated. The Government of Canada should facilitate this, because it's the right thing for us to do as Canadians.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I think five companies were producing the product you were talking about. When I look at them—and I can show you this if you want that—Apotex has the highest pricing of the five. In terms of the generic medicines, is that still...even though there's a variation? I think you said you were still price-competitive.

[Jack Kay]

The product you have here that we spent $2 million developing is sold in Canada by the patent holders--when you combine the different components--at around $4.50 per tablet. We have offered this to MSF at our cost, which is 39¢. So I'm not sure what list you have in front of you.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

It's likely from other generics in other countries.

[Jack Kay]

I don't know what you're referring to.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay. I can show you that.

One of the things you mentioned...it was kind of weird. We seem to focus a lot on AIDS, but when I was looking at the reports, malaria and other diseases are killing huge numbers of people, and the same issues came up.

Mr. Kay, you said something to the effect that you don't produce a product for malaria. Your major market is in Canada, therefore there's no demand for it in Canada because we don't have malaria. Yet malaria is a huge killer in these underdeveloped countries. We have issues in Canada with HIV/AIDS so we are producing products for that, as you've shown here, but because malaria isn't an issue in Canada we don't produce the product. How do we get around that?

[Jack Kay]

I think those products are available at competitive prices out of the country, in places such as India, which has a very progressive and sophisticated generic industry.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

So I think your answer is that we can get those from other countries.

Some of the NGOs that came to us the other day said we need to be concerned because India and some of these other countries will not be able to continue to produce the quantity of pills we need. As they progress, though, they will start to bring in patents and get stricter. So how are we going to be able to manufacture those pills if we're not able to be competitive?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll make that the last question.

Mr. Keon.

[Jim Keon]

I think you're absolutely right, Mr. Shipley. India has been called the pharmacy for the poor world because it didn't have patents. Starting in 2005, it now does have patents. If in the future we find, as Jack said, that India and Indian companies are not able to produce these products at low prices and make them available, the Canadian legislation will become very important. It's quite possible that Canadian companies will be interested in making these products and some of the NGOs will be interested in buying them. We haven't needed to do that, but in the future we might.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Monsieur Crête.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A few years ago, when the act was passed, I thought it would be the one piece of legislation of which I would be most proud upon leaving this Parliament in which I have served for the past 14 years. The reality is that it is the legislation of which I am the most ashamed.

Do you share my sentiments?

[Jim Keon]

Yes. We are very disappointed.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

[Russell Williams]

I'm not disappointed about the principles of the act. I think we can be proud of them. I too was proud of this piece of legislation. Our industry has steadfastly supported this act's fundamental principles. Despite differences of opinion as to how the act should be applied, I hope that we don't lose sight of the act's objective, which is to come up with a system to help people who are sick. The legislation is not as effective as it was expected to be and unfortunately, it has not been used to its full potential.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Would you be willing to take part in a pilot project in five countries where the government would commit to setting up an advisory committee to inform people about the act and to ensure that it is working well? One project would be carried out in each of the five countries. The impression we have today is that both sides are trying to shift the burden of drug problems onto the backs of the world's poorest. I find that very hard to accept.

Would you be willing to adopt a positive attitude and to work with the government to set up and test five projects? In a year or two, we could determine whether or not these projects have been successful and what legislative changes need to be made. Right now, it's as if we're commenting on a bicycle that has never worked. We say that it needs a different chain, when we've never really tried it out. We've even managed to scrape our knees a little trying to get off the bike. The fact is, we're not dealing with scraped knees, but with people's very survival. Would you be prepared to commit to such an initiative?

[Russell Williams]

The overriding principle here is...