Evidence of meeting #69 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refineries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sonia Marcotte  President Director General, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
Jane Savage  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association
Frédéric Quintal  Spokesperson, Gasoline at a far price
Lalita Acharya  Committee Researcher
Pierre Crevier  President, Les Pétroles Crevier and member of the AQUIP's Economic Affairs Committee, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole
René Blouin  Senior Advisor, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

I would leave that to National Energy Board, for example, to research. I think there are ways that we can have a percentage of the pipeline capacity available to non-owners of that pipeline, as an example, and not upset the market. In fact, it would help the market.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Byrne, Mr. Blouin wanted to comment on your question.

June 13th, 2007 / 4:30 p.m.

René Blouin Senior Advisor, Association québécoise des indépendants du pétrole

I would just like to add to that answer by saying that what protects consumers best is the presence of competition. The reason Quebec intervened in the retail petroleum products sector was the major crisis in 1996, when gas was being sold for 35¢ at the pump and for 56¢ at the refinery, to anyone who wanted to take his truck over to buy a litre of gas.

It was absolutely ridiculous. Under those conditions, it was clear that in the coming months, all the independents would be driven from the market. Why did the government intervene? Well, to ensure that a reasonably large number of businesses would continue to operate in the retail sector, so that there would continue to be competition.

Looking at this 10 years later, it is clear this strategy worked — first of all, because the independent sector has stayed strong, and also because we still have an independent importer who is able to keep refinery prices at a level similar to the one in New York. Furthermore, when all is said and done, prices in Quebec excluding taxes, as Ms. Marcotte pointed out, are lower than in any other region of Canada. We believe that modest regulatory action in Quebec has yielded good results. The system can still be improved, obviously, but it has yielded good results.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

We'll go to Mr. Carrie, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is to Madame Savage, if she doesn't mind.

You say that if we had more refining capacity, more refiners, and more companies, the refining margin would come down. We'd have greater competition, therefore cheaper gas prices. Is that your point?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

In the States they have more refineries and more competition. Do you find that they have lower refining margins and lower prices?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

The cost of crude plus the refining margin gives you the wholesale price. Wholesale prices in Canada are higher than in the United States.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Are they significantly higher? I'm looking at some statistics, and I'd like you to provide us with the statistics you're using. You mentioned Ervin. I have statistics that show the current refining margin in Canada is 22.1¢, and in the States it's 25.4¢, so Canada is a little lower. For the year to date it shows 16.2¢ versus 15.6¢ in the States, so we're a little bit higher. But it doesn't account for the large difference we're talking about here.

Do you have different statistics that show a major wholesale difference? Can you provide that to us?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

I certainly can. I can't comment on your numbers, because they're not corroborating with my numbers.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

They vary all the time, right?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

Absolutely.

On wholesale rack prices, I can absolutely provide you with those data.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

We had Natural Resources here, and they handed out a chart to all the parliamentarians. They showed us the prices, excluding taxes, of different countries in the world. It showed a 0.4¢ difference between Canada and the United States, with the Americans being 0.4¢ less.

Do you know how we would account for that?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

Those are retail prices?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

It says they are international gasoline prices.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

So they're probably retail prices generally.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

They are prices excluding taxes and pump prices--my apologies. The pump price does vary, but the price excluding taxes--crude, refining, and everything--is down about here consistently.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

Your chart shows a flat line across those different countries.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Yes. It shows it for Canada, U.S., Italy, France, U.K., Spain, and Germany.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

When I'm talking about wholesale price differences between Canada and the U.S., what I'm talking about is pennies a litre. We're not suggesting that Canada's wholesale prices are 30¢ a litre higher than those in the United States. They're not; they're within 6¢ to 8¢ a litre of prices in the United States.

Here's the question for you as a parliamentarian: does 6¢, 7¢, or 8¢ a litre matter? When it comes to talking to consumers about it, I suggest it does. But that's my opinion.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I think if you asked anybody they would agree with your opinion as well--and the majority of parliamentarians. I'm just curious to know the difference. I want to see your statistics on that so we can clarify the data.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I'll ask this to the panel. What would be an excessive amount of profit? How would you calculate it? Where do you think legislation would be appropriate?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mrs. Savage.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

Do you mean what would be an excessive level of profit for the refineries?