Evidence of meeting #29 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was atk.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dawn Cartwright  National Aerospace Director, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)
Carol Phillips  Assistant to the President, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)
Alain Royer  Professor and Researcher member of CARTEL (Centre d'application et de recherche en télédétection), Department of Geomatics Applied, Faculty of Literature and Social Sciences, University of Sherbrooke
Lucy Stojak  Faculty Member, International Space University, As an Individual
Steven Shrybman  Legal counsel, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)
Roland Kiehne  President, MDA Space Missions Group
Carl Marchetto  Senior Vice-President, President, ATK Space Systems, Alliant Techsystems Inc.
Steven Cortese  Senior Vice-President, Washington Operations, Alliant Techsystems Inc.

Noon

Legal counsel, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)

Steven Shrybman

Well, we haven't seen the contracts that Canada has with MDA. But under Canadian law, Canada has the right, as the U.S. will, to assert priority access to certain information.

It's important that you understand that right now, under Canadian law—and U.S. law is very much the same in this regard—Canada has the right to determine which images are collected and with whom they're shared. There are specific provisions in the legislation about sharing that information with other governments.

The same is true under U.S. law, but of course, the objectives of the claim to priority access will be very different, as will be the constraints that our respective governments may choose to impose on the collection and sharing of commercial data. The problem is that once the sale takes place, U.S. law will apply to ATK and its subsidiary, and it really has no option but to comply with those regulations.

So those regulations may supersede whatever contractual agreements the companies entered into with Canada to provide Canada with access to information that the U.S. may not want us to have, or access to information that simply isn't available because U.S. priorities have been asserted—and the company has been told to collect information about U.S. forces in Iraq and the situations they encounter there, rather than information that's important for our forces in Afghanistan.

There will just be different priorities. That's the problem.

Noon

National Aerospace Director, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)

Dawn Cartwright

I'll just address the issue of concern about jobs, and you spoke about ITAR and other regulations.

With respect to the work that is done—and I'll speak to the location in Brampton—it's really very highly advanced and a state-of-the-art type of work that our members, and those others at Brampton, are involved in.

The sale to ATK would permit distinctions between classified and non-classified work. Classified is, of course, the high-end and most advanced innovative work that is critical to our members.

The non-classified piece—really, the nuts and bolts or the minor manufacturing—we could see potentially being retained in Canada in the short term under a sale like this. But there is no question that—in terms of the pattern and what ATK has done in the past with respect to how they control and move their work—we would see the non-classified potentially staying here and the classified work and money-maker, if you will, for MDA fall to the U.S.

Noon

Assistant to the President, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)

Carol Phillips

There is also the development of the next generation--

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Just briefly. We are running very short on time and I do want to get two more members in. So briefly, Ms. Phillips.

Noon

Assistant to the President, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)

Carol Phillips

Okay. The development of the next generation of jobs and the intellectual property rights around that development is critical. We are just going to be building more and more obsolete products.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci, M. Vincent.

We'll go to Mr. Hanger, please.

April 3rd, 2008 / noon

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the witnesses for their appearance here this morning.

I don't think it's any secret that I have been somewhat critical of the proposed sale, although I am formulating opinions and gathering more information, as time goes on, from a lot of witnesses. Certainly there has been an expression here of some things that might fall into my own opinion line, but there are also some that do not.

Mr. Kiehne, you seem to invalidate your own statement, or the statement of those you claim to represent here, and I am curious about that. You say that you represent your employees, who fear loss of jobs if the sale of this company goes through. Is that basically the way I read it?

12:05 p.m.

President, MDA Space Missions Group

Roland Kiehne

Can you repeat the question?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Are you saying that you represent employees, as a union representative, who fear the loss of jobs if this sale goes through?

12:05 p.m.

President, MDA Space Missions Group

Roland Kiehne

That's correct.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Okay, but you just contradicted that by saying that the employees fear a loss of jobs because there's potentially no work. So what are you offering here for your employees?

12:05 p.m.

President, MDA Space Missions Group

Roland Kiehne

It's a feeling of job insecurity. Again, as I repeated earlier, if the funding through the Canadian Space Agency was flowing to MDA, we would not be in the situation we are today with respect to this sale. I am absolutely convinced of that. In fact, the company said that to us in a meeting, that if there indeed was money flowing from the Space Agency to MDA they would be--in terms of its robotics division anyway--able to sustain that division.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

In other words, they won't be able to sustain it if there's no money flowing. I'm asking the blunt question here because you can't have it both ways. Something is going to give.

12:05 p.m.

President, MDA Space Missions Group

Roland Kiehne

They have $1.35 billion that they could apply.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Pardon?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant to the President, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW - Canada)

Carol Phillips

There was a rosy economic picture in terms of the overall health of the company. The robotics division definitely needed Canadian Space Agency money and were holding back on it. There is no doubt, and our workers there were very nervous.

I will tell you something. Once that $1.35 billion started being waved around, there was a lot more interest expressed by MDA all of a sudden in selling that company.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

I don't think programs--

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Hanger, Ms. Stojak does want to comment on that.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

I'm sorry. Go ahead, Ms. Stojak.

12:05 p.m.

Faculty Member, International Space University, As an Individual

Dr. Lucy Stojak

I have just two quick points.

I think, for those who are in the space sector, it is true to say that the fact that Canada's space program gave no firm commitments in the past couple of years to industry has caused concern and anxiety in the Canadian space industry sector. However, it should be remembered that the budget of the Canadian Space Agency is—I believe—something like $350 million, and I think that budget has been maintained at the same level for over a decade.

If you look at the strategic thrust of the agency—Earth observation is one, developing industry telecoms is another—their pool of money has not necessarily expanded to keep pace with the different demands, be it from a scientific exploratory perspective or from an industrial development base.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I'm sorry, Mr. Hanger, we're running very short on time and Ms. Nash did want to complete the second round.

Ms. Nash, you have about four minutes.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I have a quick question about the Canadian Space Agency. How big a player is MDA in Canada's space industry?

12:05 p.m.

Faculty Member, International Space University, As an Individual

Dr. Lucy Stojak

Based on statistics and reports in the public domain, it clearly is the lead space company in Canada. I don't have knowledge of what percentage of CSA overall funding or revenue it generates. It's the biggest space industry player in Canada, that's for sure.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

The technology that Canada has been able to produce previously--some through other companies, but now through MDA--is iconic technology like the Canadarm, the recently launched Dextre robotics, just in February, the RADARSAT-2. These are world leaders. RADARSAT, I believe, is unique technology in the world. Is that correct?

12:10 p.m.

Faculty Member, International Space University, As an Individual

Dr. Lucy Stojak

Yes, that's correct.