Evidence of meeting #7 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was retailers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joyce Reynolds  Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association
Ron Reaman  Vice-President, Federal, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association
Diane Brisebois  President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada
Kim Furlong  Director, Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I will call to order this meeting, the seventh meeting this session, of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. The orders today are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), continuing our review of Canada's service sector.

We have two organizations with us today. First, from the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association, we have Ms. Joyce Reynolds, executive vice-president, government affairs. Welcome. We also have the vice-president, federal affairs, Mr. Ron Reaman.

The second organization we have with us today is the Retail Council of Canada. We have the president and chief executive officer, Ms. Diane Brisebois. Welcome, again, to the committee. We also have, from the Retail Council of Canada, Ms. Kim Furlong. Welcome.

I think we'll start with the CRFA for an up to 10-minute presentation, then we'll go to the Retail Council of Canada, and then we'll go to questions from members.

Ms. Reynolds, I believe you'll be presenting on behalf of your organization.

9 a.m.

Joyce Reynolds Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Absolutely.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Please commence at any time.

9 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Joyce Reynolds

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We appreciate the opportunity to participate in your study of the service sector. In the next 10 minutes, Ron Reaman and I will provide you with an overview of Canada's food service industry in terms of its size, scope, employment, and performance in recent years. We will also briefly outline the challenges that food service industry operators face and the policy help that the industry needs, focusing on three specific areas: labour shortage, food supply, and the GST.

The first slide shows that Canada's food service industry represents one of the largest sectors of the Canadian economy. With sales of $53 billion, it represents close to 4% of GDP. With almost 63,000 establishments across the country, the food service industry contributes to the economy of virtually every Canadian community.

More than two-thirds of Canadian restaurants, cafeterias, coffee shops, pubs, and caterers are locally owned and operated by independent entrepreneurs. They bring jobs and investment to communities from coast to coast. In fact, restaurants are often the community hub. They provide gathering spots for people, a social club for seniors, a boardroom for small business owners, and a meeting place for community groups. They're the go-to business for most charities. They raise money and donate food; they sponsor little league, fun runs, and summer camps. They believe in getting involved and giving back.

The next slide shows the economic impact of a new restaurant coming to a community, a full-service casual restaurant. I won't go through it, but I will leave it for you to read later.

In terms of employment, with over one million employees, the food service industry accounts for 6.3% of total employment in Canada. More people work in the food service industry than in agriculture, forestry, pulp and paper, banking, and oil and gas extraction combined. An additional 240,000 Canadians are indirectly employed by the food service industry as suppliers, distributors, and consultants. The food service industry provides first job experience for hundreds of thousands of youth, as well as a wide variety of career choices.

The next slide is on performance. Canada's food service industry has faced an unprecedented number of challenges in recent years: SARS, BSE, followed by skyrocketing energy prices, a rapid rise in the Canadian dollar, and a dramatic reduction in travel to Canada. As a result, real food service sales have increased just 3.6% since 2001, compared to real GDP growth of 14.5% during the same time period. There are 1,180 fewer food service operators today than in 2001. The number of international travellers to Canada has fallen 13.3% since 2000, and international tourist spending on food service has decreased 5.9%.

On profitability, food service is a competitive business that operates on razor-thin margins. According to the most recent data from Statistics Canada, rising food and labour costs reduced the pre-tax profit margin for the average operator to only 3.8% of operating revenue in 2005. The average business in Canada, in contrast, enjoyed a pre-tax profit of 8.8%.

Now I'll speak about the challenges, beginning with labour shortage.

The labour shortage is the greatest single issue facing food service operators. In Alberta, higher wages haven't translated into more employees. We're still facing fewer employees. A lack of people means lack of opportunities.

Over the next nine years, Canada's commercial food service industry will require an additional 181,000 workers. While the demand for food service employees will grow an average of 1.8% per year for the next nine years, the working-age population of 15- to 69-year-olds will grow by just 0.9%. Nearly 45% of food service employees are under the age of 25, reflecting the many part-time and entry-level jobs the industry provides.

Over the next four years, however, Canada's population of youth will remain flat, before dramatically declining over the following 11 years. By 2022, there will be 340,000 fewer young people in Canada than there are today. Our industry is confronted with a huge challenge.

How can industry help? It is essential that we modernize our immigration system, and in particular, the point system, so that it recognizes the diversities of Canada's labour market.

In terms of temporary foreign worker programs, we need to offer a bridge from temporary to permanent residency. We should recognize the Canadian job experience that temporary foreign workers acquire, and we should allow them to apply for permanent residency while they're in the country. We need to further streamline the process in the temporary foreign worker program and permit bulk applications. We wish to acknowledge significant progress in the last year in this regard. We would also like to see temporary foreign worker permits extended further. We need to expand the working holiday program to incorporate a larger cap and longer permit periods.

Other ways government can help is through policies that encourage rather than discourage work. Reduce the marginal tax rate for low-income Canadians. We were pleased to see the introduction of the working income tax benefit in the April budget. We'd like to see that expanded. We were also pleased to see the increase in the personal tax exemption. We would like to see it expanded as well, and increased over the next five years to $15,000.

We'd like to see seniors permitted to earn additional income without a drastic cutback in their guaranteed income supplement. Similarly, we recommend that the clawbacks of EI benefits be graduated.

I'll pass it over to you, Ron.

9:05 a.m.

Ron Reaman Vice-President, Federal, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

I'd like to take a couple of minutes to speak to the issue of food supply, and in particular, to the current system of supply management in Canada.

We consider ourselves partners with all Canadian producers in Canada, and we have a vested interest in ensuring that there's a robust dairy and poultry sector. I want to underscore the fact that over and above the more than one million employees we employ across the country, we are also responsible for upwards of 20% of all the agricultural jobs created in Canada.

As one of the largest customers for dairy and poultry products, we have serious concerns about the long-term viability and sustainability of Canada's current supply-managed commodity sectors. Canada's closed marketing systems for dairy and poultry have led to a crisis in supply, have stifled innovation and new product development, have shut down export opportunities for all Canadian producers, and have resulted in higher supply-managed commodity prices for customers and consumers alike.

Canadian restaurants buy over $2 billion worth of dairy products every year. This makes us one of the dairy industry's largest customers. As a benchmark, the cost of production, according to the Canadian Dairy Commission's own study, has risen only 1.5% since 1994. The price of producing a hectolitre of milk in this country has actually increased by only 1.4%. At the same time, the price of industrial milk has increased by a staggering 54.5%. As you'll see from the chart I've provided, when you consider this against the consumer price index, which has risen a mere 30.2% during that same 12-year period, the cost-to-price gap is astounding, at nearly twice the rate. Is it any wonder that we've seen a decline in the consumption of dairy, as dairy prices itself off Canadian menus?

The next slide I've provided is a quote. I'd like to read it. It's actually something that came into our website during one of our annual dairy campaigns:

I am a small independent pizzeria operator and one of my biggest costs is cheese. Every time the price of cheese goes up, I have to raise my prices which makes me less competitive. Why do frozen pizza makers get cheese cheaper than I can? We need to make the system fair for everyone.

This is from one of our pizzeria operators in Alberta.

I just want to be clear that restaurants need a level playing field in order to compete successfully in this country. The existing special milk class permit program has created inequities in the system and gives preferential pricing to frozen pizza manufacturers, who pay U.S.-based cheese prices for their pizza cheese. Fresh pizza makers pay 30% more for their cheese, yet they compete directly in the marketplace with frozen pizzas. What I'm asking is to have access to special milk class 5A cheese pricing in order to compete with frozen pizzas in the marketplace.

So what are some of the solutions we see in terms of the supply management system? Clearly, there's a need for reform across the board. As the world's fourth largest exporter of agricultural products, Canada must begin to plan for transition to more open markets. Canada's existing closed marketing system for supply management is outdated and is costly to Canadians. The antiquated legacy systems limit our ability to innovate and promote dairy and poultry products in Canada.

I also would like to highlight that similar supply management systems have been reformed in other jurisdictions, such as Australia and New Zealand, so there is ample precedent and there are case studies on the success of reform.

9:10 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Joyce Reynolds

The third key issue we would like to highlight is GST-PST harmonization. The GST is the federal policy that has had the single greatest negative impact on the food service industry in the past 20 years. In the year the tax was imposed, real food service sales dropped by 10.6%, and same-store sales declined by 22.7%. An Ernst & Young report attributed three-quarters of the sales decline to the impact of the GST. By way of contrast, GDP the same year fell by 2%. Almost 57,000 food service employees lost their jobs; 43,000 of these job losses were attributed to the GST.

So what are the problems with the GST? First of all, it isn't neutral. The same products are taxed differently, depending on where they're purchased. With all due respect to Diane, your industry is given a tremendous competitive advantage over ours. We compete directly with retail.

9:10 a.m.

Diane Brisebois President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada

Now you know there's one thing we won't agree on.

9:10 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:10 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Joyce Reynolds

Secondly, GST distorts the marketplace. GST is bad for tourism, and we can get into the details of this during the question and answer period. The GST is regressive. GST-PST harmonization will result in a multi-million-dollar shift of taxation from businesses to consumers.

I'm wrapping up, thanks.

GST will cost the food service industry in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Ontario $885 million.

9:10 a.m.

Vice-President, Federal, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Ron Reaman

In closing, we'd like to thank the committee for having us present these remarks, and we look forward to engaging you in questions afterwards.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for that.

We will now go to the Retail Council.

9:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada

Diane Brisebois

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Merci, monsieur le président.

We will be addressing or touching on three areas. One is investing in our people, the second is investing in new technology, and the third is removing barriers.

As mentioned, I am the president and CEO of the Retail Council of Canada, Conseil canadien du commerce de détail. We speak for an industry that is vital to the daily lives of all Canadians. There are more than 227,000 retail locations across our country, directly employing over 2.1 million Canadians. At the end of 2006, retailers generated more than $350 billion in sales.

As impressive as those numbers are, they understate the importance of the retail trade to the Canadian economy. The role of retailing in the economy has changed dramatically in recent years. Retailers are no longer the channel through which manufacturers and suppliers push products to final consumers. As a result of their superior knowledge of customer needs, retailers have become buying agents for the Canadian public.

This change in role has had two major effects. Retailers use the power of their customers' demands to drive other major parts of the economy. Their understanding of consumer needs and wants directs the production and importation of most consumer products and establishes the prices consumers are prepared to pay for those products. This, in turn, defines the cost parameters within which retailers and their suppliers must operate.

You can see this playing out in relation to the increase in the value of the Canadian dollar. If the product offerings of Canadian retailers do not meet the expectations of their customers, as we have all seen, Canadians quickly vote with their feet and their dollars.

Retailers have been responding to the pressure of the high dollar for some time, going back to suppliers and saying, please explain your pricing policies, please explain country pricing, please justify the price discrepancy, and if you cannot do so, we expect you to reduce that gap significantly, immediately.

Our members will keep the pressure on suppliers, but the reality is that currency parity does not mean price parity. There are a large number of factors that can create differences in the final retail prices between jurisdictions, and many of these tend to push prices higher in Canada. Some reflect fundamental structural differences between the two countries, some reflect policy differences, and some reflect competitive factors.

For example, the Canadian market is one-tenth of the size of the U.S. market, which presents scale issues. Labour costs are higher. The U.S. federal minimum wage recently rose in the U.S., as I mentioned, to $5.15 per hour. Transportation logistics costs are higher because of our smaller population and the long distances between major urban centres. Unique labelling requirements, including nutritional, bilingual, and metric, add cost and prevent retailers from sourcing directly from the U.S.

Some of these costs represent a premium we all pay for the many benefits that come with being Canadian. Our members, like all Canadians, value these benefits highly, and we accept and support this premium.

Still, there are things that can be improved to offset or reduce these costs and improve the competitiveness of the retail sector. We are grateful for the steps the federal government has taken to reduce corporate taxation. These measures are a meaningful step in assisting retailers to reinvest in their companies and their people. There are some additional measures that would provide targeted incentives for retailers to make some key investments.

RCC has called for government support for the investments that retailers make in their people and innovative technologies and business practices. We also need government action to remove some of the barriers to the efficient movement of goods within the Canadian supply chain.

Allow me a moment to speak about investing in our people. The RCC has supported the work of the federal government, in partnership with provinces, to improve the supply of labour through changes to immigration policy, new action on temporary workers, and the recent panel appointed by Minister Solberg to work on how to keep mature workers longer in the workforce. As well as increasing the pool of workers, retailers are anxious to retain the employees they have and to improve their skills.

One of the biggest challenges the retail industry is facing today is the cost of training a labour force that is constantly changing. Annual turnover rates are slightly over 30% in the retail sector, compared to a labour force average of slightly over 20%. Some members are now experiencing turnover rates as high as 60% in some regions of Alberta. The constant need for internal training puts a strain on retailers and affects the quality of service that retailers can offer to their customers.

Retailers are doing what they can to improve their retention rates, but it will always be a challenge. Retailers have been able to increase average pay rates faster than the industrial average in recent years, we're pleased to say. Retail hourly wages have risen from a low point of 76% of the industrial average in 1999 to over 88% in 2006, the most recent year for which we have information. The average hourly wage has risen from $12.18 in 1999 to over $15.18 in 2006.

Our members would like to pay their employees more, but the vigorous competition in the trade, driven by value-conscious consumers, makes it very difficult to do so, as we have seen in recent months. Employment is one of the very few costs that a retailer can manage, so these costs bear a heavy burden on the need to be competitive. Retailers deeply respect the smart, informed Canadian consumer, but this consumer also makes it extremely difficult for a retailer to raise its wages above the competitive norm.

One way to boost productivity and retention and improve wages is to invest more in our people. Retail is the place where many Canadians start their working careers, so retailers are accustomed to doing a lot of formal and informal training. Some of this is job and employer specific, but retailers also build a lot of portable skills in their people. The government currently recognizes company investments in upgrading its human resources by permitting the write-off of expenditures on third-party training and education paid for by the company. However, retailers also do extensive in-house training.

RCC would recommend that the government provide tax support for these expenditures similar to that provided for out-of-house training costs. RCC recognizes that there are challenges in defining what in-house expenditures would be eligible. However, Quebec is one jurisdiction that includes some forms of in-house training in its training tax credit scheme, proving that it is possible to identify and support certain defined forms of in-house training. RCC would recommend that the federal government consider providing tax support for these types of training costs.

As regards investment in technologies, information and communication technologies are driving major improvements in retail productivity and dramatic changes in business practices. Working from a small market base, retailers operating in Canada are struggling to keep up with rapid international developments. Obviously the sector could use some help.

The next major wave of change in retailing will be the implementation of radio frequency identification technology in the supply chain, which is RFID. This technology will lower costs and improve the quality of service offered to the customer. However, at this point, the use of RFID in Canadian retailing, and indeed in manufacturing, remains extremely low, largely because it's costly to implement. In order to stimulate investment in these technologies, RCC has recommended some faster rates of depreciation for key investments. The measures we suggest are similar to those used when the GST was introduced, so we know they are doable and we know they work.

In terms of removing barriers, I'm sensitive to time, but perhaps you could allow me to talk about duties, because there was a lot of misunderstanding in the public, and I think also with the members of this committee and Parliament, about how retailers price their goods. While we know many of the prices have been reduced, sometimes at the cost of margins, we also need to understand that this committee, as well as the government, has a role to play, and it's specifically in import duties.

Duties are the perfect example of a barrier, and the perfect example of not having a level playing field with our American competitors. One of the reasons that many consumer goods are more expensive in Canada compared to the U.S. is obviously the higher level of duty levied on imports. We recognize that some duties protect Canadian jobs and protect Canadian manufacturers, but some are pointless. For example, Canada does not manufacture any substantial amount of single in-line skates, but the duty on these products is 18% compared with a rate of 0% when these goods enter the U.S., meaning that a retailer importing these products into Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, B.C.—regardless—would import them at an 18% duty versus his or her competitor in the United States. This is a cost differential no retailer can surmount; no retailer can in fact eat within its profit margin with that duty.

I would add that Canada's rules on the movement of international marine containers, called cabotage regulations, need to be reviewed. Let me just wrap this up and say that our cabotage regulations currently do not reflect the needs of the modern supply chain.

Let me explain. When we're talking about marine containers, we're talking about those 40-foot boxes we see on boats, trains, and trucks, and at the locations of many businesses across the country. Cabotage regulations in Canada do not permit these boxes, so to speak, to enter the country for more than 30 days. They have to come through one port and they have to go out through the same port. The United States allows these containers to come into its ports and to stay within the country for over 300 days and to exit the country through another port, meaning that all of the companies using those containers are saving a substantial amount of money.

I wish I could conclude, and I apologize for not doing so, but hopefully I will have a moment when there's a question.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I'm sure you'll have plenty of questions. Thank you very much.

9:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada

Diane Brisebois

I never talked so fast in my life.

9:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

To start, we have Mr. Eyking for six minutes, please.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have six minutes, so I'm going to split the two questions, one for Mr. Reaman and one for Madame Brisebois.

My first question would be to you, Mr. Reaman, and I have about three minutes. It's on your comments about supply management.

Being a past farmer and a member of the trade and agriculture committees, and having been to Geneva, I often hear from other countries that we're the envy of the world with our food system—and supply management is a big part of that.

It does various things. It keeps stability with a constant supply of food. Many of our farmers have to maintain a higher standard than those in other countries, whether from HACCP programs or other things. For example, many of our dairy farmers cannot use growth hormones, which are used in the States. If you take a cow in the States, they use hormones for it, making the cow produce more milk that's cheaper, but it burns out the cow. So there are all these different factors in play, which our supply management maintains—and our farmers maintain that quality of product.

There are other factors, of course. Our farmers live in a northern climate, where it costs more to produce our product. We can only have our cows on the grass for four or five months. So you can get this cheap cheese out of New Zealand, where they don't have the same costs. The concern is that if you let all these cheap cheeses come in, it's really going to devastate our dairy farmers, because a certain part of their milk is for industrial uses and goes into the cheese market, and if they don't have that market, it's going to really cause a devastating effect. That's my pitch from the farmers' point of view.

Also, there have been studies done on this, and there's no doubt that when you go to Washington or Detroit, there is some cheaper milk and cheeses. A lot of them are loss leaders, but if you take a basket of dairy and poultry products in Boston compared with Montreal, there's only about a 10% difference.

So that's my statement, but my question is, shouldn't the restaurant and food service organizations be concerned if they are pushing for eliminating supply management? Aren't they concerned about what they're doing to our rural economy and farmers, and about their future food supply--because there have been studies done lately showing that the first thing that matters to consumers is not price. They want to buy local food; they want to buy safe food; they want to feel they're supporting their local farmers. Just recently I was in Quebec City, and it's nice to know that all these products we have in our country we can eat right here.

So I'm just concerned about the food service industry pushing that way. Is there a concern from their side about how they could devastate our rural economy and our farmers?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Federal, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Ron Reaman

Thank you for your question.

The first thing I want to say is that we are absolutely in support of, and we consider ourselves to be a partner with, both the dairy and poultry as well as every other agricultural commodity group in Canada. We are by definition the first and/or second largest customer of those products, next to grocery retail, as we are the primary/secondary sales channel for those products in Canada. We rely on fresh local product, and that's not going to change regardless of what happens in terms of supply management reform.

The other thing I want to say is that, with all due respect, I'm trying to be a little bit provocative in the sense that I want to stimulate discussion around this issue. I've found for far too long that I've been involved in this discussion there is a singular monolithic take on what it means to be a farmer in Canada, when there are great distinctions to be made between the various commodity sectors.

While there are some benefits to supply management, I will concede, what we are looking for and advocating is reform. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but at the same time, when you look at the way other countries manage their agricultural commodity sectors, we have lessons to learn from some of those countries. I think there's lots of room for improvement. At the end of the day, food is what we do, it's what we sell. It is our business, so it's imperative that we have efficient, technologically advanced, competitively priced commodities to sell in order to sell those products.

The message I really want to deliver to this committee, which I believe is responsible for industry, science, and technology, is that in an increasingly global marketplace we have to start to look at some of the other jurisdictions that are doing things a little bit better and look at them for examples of reform. I think there's lots of room for improvement here in Canada.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you.

I have one minute. My question is to the retailers.

In Europe, especially the U.K., Denmark, and other countries, the retailers in these countries are really starting to look at their carbon footprint. They're analyzing how far away they're buying their food. At the end of the day, for them to reduce the carbon footprint is buying locally. We find in Canada that retailers are getting their distribution centres, and they're moving away from local product when a person producing potatoes in P.E.I. has to ship them so far.

What is the retail association doing to reduce its carbon footprint and to encourage buying locally instead of moving away from buying local products?

9:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada

Diane Brisebois

I won't speak on the grocery side specifically, but let me speak on general merchandise.

Your assessment is correct. We've found for quite a period of time that to find economies of scale and to be extremely competitive in the marketplace, large retailers from coast to coast have been sourcing products from outside the country, specifically Asia and some in eastern Europe.

We have found that a lot of our retailers, including Canadian companies and international ones--so Rona out of Quebec, Wal-Mart out of their head office in Ontario, London Drugs out of their head office in Vancouver--are now holding trade shows in Canada inviting local suppliers to show their wares. Certainly the trade shows, particularly in Quebec, have been extremely successful in promoting and encouraging local businesses. We, as an association, obviously continue to encourage our retailers from coast to coast to buy locally. The reality is that in some cases the product is competitive, the product is different enough, the quality is good, but in other cases consumers will not want to buy it. So retailers have to try to balance both, consumers' wants and needs and what the local supplier can provide.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Eyking.

We'll go now to Madame Brunelle.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Ms. Reynolds, I would like to talk about the working conditions in the restaurant sector. It seems that these conditions are getting worse for some of them. For example, we have been told about the difficulties faced by restaurant workers who receive tips. We have heard that the government has a tax rate that assumes a tip of 20 to 30% of sales. That means that these workers—and often they are women working as waitresses in restaurants—are taxed on this basis. This is really a very difficult situation for them.

Do you intend to take any action? If you say that there are labour shortages, and if working conditions are still getting worse, it will be more and more difficult to attract people to work in your restaurants.

9:30 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association

Joyce Reynolds

Thank you for the question. It's interesting that you raise the issue of tipped employees, because tipped employees in our industry can earn hundreds of dollars of additional income on one shift. They are one of the entry-level employee positions that it's less difficult to recruit because they can earn so much additional income in tips. And it's always been legislation here in Canada that all income is subjected to income taxes, so yes, they are required to declare their tips and to pay income on their tips. But you're quite right, tips are a very large component of their compensation.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Your comment might apply to tipped employees working in high-quality restaurants. However, we cannot assume that people working in fast food restaurants or small restaurants will get tips of 20%. The female workers who alerted us to this problem face difficult working conditions. In most cases, these women have jobs with no security and they do not earn enough to raise their families. These are the workers who are being targeted, and I would like you to focus on this issue. I would now like to ask Ms. Brisebois a question.

Your remark surprised me a little. Thirty years ago, we talked about the leisure society. We no longer do so, because people are working more and more and they are working longer and longer. It is somewhat discouraging. If peopled used to plan to retire at 50, now they are undertaking a second career. You say we should be making things easy for older workers.

I remember that about 10 years ago in the United States, I believe it was at Disney World, 70-year-old people were working because their retirement income was inadequate. I am wondering whether your comment means that this is where we are heading. I find this a pathetic situation. Please reassure me, because I find this quite a sad story.

We have tried to build a society based on sharing and social justice, but if people can no longer retire with dignity, with an adequate income, I think we have failed.

9:35 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada

Diane Brisebois

I agree completely. If people have to go back to the labour market at age 70 because they do not have enough income to enjoy life, that is truly a sad situation. However, generally speaking, I do not think that people who go back to work in retail do so specifically because they need a pay cheque at the end of the week.

All of our polls have shown that compared to people working in the restaurant sector, most individuals, particularly those in retail, were single. While some older individuals did need the income, they were not the majority. Actually, most of them needed more social contact.

We also noticed that few of the respondents spoke about their lifestyle or their needs. We were surprised to find that most of these people wanted to work in retail in order to meet other people and not be so alone.