Evidence of meeting #26 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was internet.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Helen McDonald  Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry
Richard Simpson  Director General, Electronic Commerce Branch, Department of Industry

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

In terms of the other countries' anti-spam legislation that's referred to, I understand it's been a real success in those countries. Are there any lessons to be learned, any response that can be given or experience drawn upon, based on the knowledge we have of those countries' legislation that might address some of the concerns that some stakeholders might have?

5:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

I'm going to ask Richard to answer that, given his greater experience in putting this together, but also because he interacts more closely with other countries with similar regimes.

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Electronic Commerce Branch, Department of Industry

Richard Simpson

Thank you.

The one common denominator that has come out of work in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which started an examination of spam and other harmful activity on the Internet a few years ago, was that you need a combination of tools, legal and technical, to deal with spam. I think that's the first lesson.

The legislative side of it, which I think has been recognized in the work that we've been doing on spam, is one of the important pieces of that toolkit approach that we need. I think you'll find that every country that has a successful result from their work on spam--for example, Australia--has a toolkit approach. In fact, Australia, like Canada, talked about toolkits at the same time the OECD promoted that particular approach.

Australia has taken an approach towards spam that, like this bill, is based on the concept of consent. As I mentioned before, they have looked at it as a domestic regime that has to work in combination with international arrangements to deal with spamming. Another similarity to Bill C-27 is that the Australians do use their communications regulator as well to deal with some aspects of spam.

Interestingly, Australia is a country that formally reviewed its anti-spam legislation in 2006 after about three years in operation. They found out from the data that because of the legislative arrangements they put in place, they had reduced Australia's contribution, if I can use that word, to global spam to something that was well down in the list. It was off the top 20 list of spam-originating countries. I think that's a good example of how that toolkit approach has been effective in that one country.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Mr. Simpson.

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Mr. Masse.

June 9th, 2009 / 5:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here. Thanks for noting the New Democratic policy from the last platform. Feel free to act on our position on net neutrality and employment insurance reform as well, if you like.

5:05 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There are other suggestions on priorities.

Mr. Minister, I know you heard these problems with regard to some of the types of issues being raised here. Do you now plan to bring amendments to this legislation, or right now is it one that you want to pass in its current form?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I take this committee seriously. If you have some common-sense suggestions that would fit into what our aspirations are for this particular bill, then I think we're prepared to look at that, absolutely. I encourage you to do that.

The only thing I would say, and I guess Mr. Garneau raised this a little bit, is that we do consider this economic legislation. There is a $3-billion-a-year effect on business in this country. I think we should hunker down at committee and come up with some positive changes that will make this a better bill.

I don't want to stretch this out too long, because, quite frankly, we're costing businesses in our country money, and we're the only country in the G-7 that doesn't have anti-spam legislation. I think it's incumbent upon us to get the shoulder to the wheel and get this done.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I appreciate that. I agree, as long as we can do the proper bill, and then we could also move on to my private member's bill, Bill C-273.

5:10 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

This is a paid political announcement.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes.

But I do want to run through a couple of scenarios, to be clear here. I want to make sure I understand the interpretations that are happening, as well as this information coming to us. For example, would automatic updates be considered spam under this bill if it's passed?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Do you mean with the pre-existing relationship? That's what we're saying. We would like that to be part of implied consent.

Helen, do you want to talk about that?

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes, as it currently stands in terms of interpretation. I have a couple of scenarios here.

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

It's clearly written as express consent for program modifications.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

So right now that would be spam, then, under this?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

No, I haven't said that. I'm simply saying that the spam itself allows for implied and express consent. The modification of your computer program requires express consent the way it's written now. It does it kind of program by program; I imagine there are easily ways in your contract, whether that's electronic or paper, with your security software provider. One could provide that express consent for “yes, I want the automatic updates”, and so on.

So I would not see that as problematic. I think what we're trying to make sure of is the wording we have for the combination of you agreeing to every explicit program and express consent--that we have it worded correctly.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That could be through regulations and licensing.

Very quickly, then, let's say, for example, that a new software company wants to communicate with other software distributors and all that. Would they be able to send out a message to everyone within their own field of software development or would that be considered spam? Would they have to rely on traditional mail to contact people they haven't had contact with before in the business but who are integral for developing that industry?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

There's a provision for business-to-business e-mail--

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Even if they have no pre-existing relationship?

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay.

As well, very quickly, I want to touch on the do-not-call list. What other types of changes do you foresee? One of the things that I tried to get on the do-not-call list last time was the computerized “ghost call” that happens to individuals first, to determine whether you're home or not; then it hangs up right away. That amendment was defeated, unfortunately, when we passed that bill.

Would this provide an opportunity for you to address that issue? That's becoming more and more of a problem. You're at home, they do the first phone call, and if you pick it up, then it's blank, it's dead air. From there, the telephone solicitor or the operative then calls you back immediately, knowing that the person is at home. Would there be a remedy in this bill here?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I would say no, because our bill is dealing with electronic communications, not using telephones for a medium.

But it's becoming difficult to separate these things out. That's what I was trying to signal in my remarks. We have a contract with Bell right now. They run the do-not-call list, so I want to obviously let that contract kind of run, and this bill gives us an opportunity, then, to start to see if things have converged to such an extent that you can't really chunk out telephony on one end and the electronic on the other. Then we will have an ability to tuck everything into the same kind of regime.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay. I think there's some fear being expressed out there that this potentially could open up, and that the do-not-call list would be vulnerable.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I don't think so. I think it's expressly excluded, but it gives us a chance to sort of tuck it in if we so choose.