Evidence of meeting #35 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was e-mail.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
He said that if we were to move in that direction, we'd be going in the wrong direction.
Do you agree with Mr. Fewer that the American legislation doesn't go far enough, that we need to learn from other pieces of legislation that have been passed, and maybe mistakes that have been made, in terms of our drafting of this legislation?
4:40 p.m.
General Counsel and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
I will let my colleague answer this question.
4:40 p.m.
Assistant General Counsel and Foreign Bank Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Thank you, Mr. Lake.
As we said, I think we are strongly supportive of the bill generally. I think our reference to other legislation was really in relation to specific provisions in this bill rather than generally. I would agree that the civil servants and the department have obviously spent a great deal of time considering legislation elsewhere to come up with a comprehensive bill that I think there is a lot of support for. So our reference to other legislation, especially U.S., was in relation to specific provisions rather than the bill generally. I think some of the other witnesses would indicate, similarly, that while this bill is to be admired in many ways, it doesn't mean to say there aren't amendments that could make it even better.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Their suggestion is to clarify, though. Is the suggestion you're making that any company could send out an e-mail to me without having any relationship with me whatsoever, to ask me if I want to have a business relationship with them?
4:40 p.m.
Assistant General Counsel and Foreign Bank Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Are you discussing the initial contact message?
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Yes. Is that your proposal, the initial contact message?
4:40 p.m.
Assistant General Counsel and Foreign Bank Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Our proposal is that in this day and age, where more and more companies are dealing in electronic means, and in fact that's being encouraged because it obviously lowers costs both to the companies concerned and the consumer, we should try to have a balance between the need to avoid malicious spam and allowing companies to continue to have legitimate business activities electronically. We think allowing an initial contact message to prospective customers, with suitable safeguards, as we've indicated, which would be consistent with the intent and principles in the bill, would effect that balance that we're discussing.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
So, hypothetically, if my e-mail address wound up on a list of e-mail addresses that was being sold, if that was the way that companies could prospect, my name could be sold to 100,000 companies, all of whom would have licence to send me one e-mail to see if I would want to give them explicit consent to buy their product.
4:45 p.m.
Assistant General Counsel and Foreign Bank Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Well, that's an interesting thought, although I don't think many people would get 100,000 e-mails, to be frank. You can always take hypotheticals to an extreme, but I think in the practical sense what really happens is that a very selective number of businesses are involved in this type of business, especially if the idea was that the initial contact would have a number of restrictions on it as to how it would be sent.
With respect, I don't think you would end up with 100,000 companies going to the time and trouble needed to prepare this type of initial message.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
But the fact that you're proposing it would indicate that you would defend that as good, strategic policy for a company, to get e-mail addresses and then send that one e-mail out, right? So would it not stand to reason that any company that wants to promote itself using sound, strategic policy would actually undertake that strategy and thus send out an e-mail, and there would be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of businesses that might actually undertake that strategy?
4:45 p.m.
Assistant General Counsel and Foreign Bank Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Again, with respect, I don't think there would be tens or hundreds of thousands. I think given the restrictions we suggest be placed on it, what you would find is that it would only be a small number of businesses, and a lot of them would be smaller businesses who do not have the means or resources or staff to contact prospective customers.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Actually, could I get Ms. Reed to comment on that? I would be curious to hear her thoughts.
4:45 p.m.
Head, Research and Representation Department, Option consommateurs
Thank you.
Again, I have a question for any business seeking to make that initial contact. How will obtain the email address of the person it wants to contact? That is all I want to know.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Misener. Your definition of a consumer is basically someone engaged in purchasing from somebody else. Now the unfortunate thing with that is it could apply to just about anything anywhere, because we're a consuming society. It would apply to everything from food to stores, shops, and so forth. Your business happens to be a very successful one in terms of marketing and using the Internet, especially in the early days and with the convergence of media and the products you sell.
I looked at your request to change the 18-month period of implied consent, and I guess the question I would have is, yes, I could have bought a book and enjoyed it, but I could also have bought a book and not liked it. So why should you have that right to have the next one, as it were, come my way?
4:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Global Public Policy, Amazon.com
That's a good point--but the next one could be better!
There are many ways for feedback on particular products to be registered at Amazon.ca. Certainly our customers are vociferous in their recommendations, both pro and con. So it's very helpful to consumers who shop on the site.
I'm just saying that if you're going to have an implied consent based on a purchase, 18 months just doesn't make sense. It has to be a much longer period for that to be meaningful to consumers. I've thought not only about similar products but also of replacement products, things like electric shavers or headphones with limited lives. You don't want to get an e-mail about the possibility of replacing that product within 17 and a half months, because it better still be working by then, but after four years, that would be a useful offer to receive.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Well, it might be an incentive for businesses actually to have the warranty time be the time they can contact you back. From a consumer perspective, I would argue that.
Now if I could move to Mrs. Clark and Mr. Randle, I think there's been a point missed in all of this. For example, I buy my own computer, I pay for the Internet service, and I go to my bank online and end up paying a service fee for that, and then I face a pop-up window with a survey question I have to answer before I can even get into my own bank account.
Isn't it really a privilege to be able to send me an e-mail on a service that I'm paying for, on equipment I've bought, through a medium I control, and on business transactions I am paying a premium for with an institution to begin with? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Isn't it really just a privilege that you can actually send somebody some information about a new product or service?
4:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
I think your question is in relation to online banking.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
No, even in general. I think there's been a lack of recognition that consumers are the ones who are paying for this infrastructure through taxes—and, actually, many times through subsidies from government programs to create the Internet at the speed and duration it works right now. There's more money that's going to be added to that. Then personally, as a consumer, you are paying for the entire infrastructure or the operating costs, and you're giving a portal or entry into that in which you've invested.
4:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Bankers Association
Online banking is done at a bank website that customers such as you access proactively to take care of their personal finances. These online banking portals were developed to respond to a customer need, to customers who wanted to use electronic means to do their personal finances.
Now it is also a means for financial institutions to get into contact with their customers, because very often that customer will not go into the branch or call the bank. So it is also a way to have a dialogue with the customer.
I think you made reference to an opportunity the bank has to send messages to their customers. Some of our online banking websites have these windows where they send you information. Very often they will do so identifying a need. Sometimes they will use these types of messages to respond to specific questions, depending on what's available on the website.
But it is a proactive step taken by the customer to enter the website, and for the bank to respond to a customer need. Therefore—
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Quite frankly, some of that need is because so many banks in my riding have closed, so that your options are much more limited. It's been a changing environment that has also led to some of the need out there.
My problem, really, is that I consider it to be spam that I have to answer a question of a survey on my behaviour, which goes into another file somewhere else, to get into my own account. I find that offensive, because I'm paying for that account. I think Canadians deserve a lot more credit. They can surf your Internet site and find out what's available to them and decide when and how they need to use it. I think we've turned this upside down.
Do I have time for one last quick question? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I do want to send this out generally to everybody here, because I think it is important as an updating part of the software. I have PlayStation 3. I grew up in the gaming age. They send me a message to update my computer or my game, and I have to accept, then move through a statement and accept that statement, and then the download automatically happens. My understanding is that this process is what's being requested for other things. Maybe this would actually wake up Microsoft to release a product that's actually finished on the market. I would like to hear if that is not a reasonable way to approach update of software, of your information. I'll turn it over to the table here.
4:50 p.m.
Head, Research and Representation Department, Option consommateurs
I feel that this would be a rather sensible way of maintaining this business relationship. If I can reassure Mr. Misener at all, I would say that when that initial email is sent out, it is a simple matter of asking the consumer to tick off a box if he or she wishes to receive additional emails. Then the relationship can continue indefinitely. There is sufficient latitude in this bill to enable businesses to conduct their affairs.
