Evidence of meeting #29 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One of the last questions the minister was asked this morning, by Mr. Lukiswki, was how we can be sure that this voluntarily collected data will be useful. To paraphrase what the minister said, he said that it can be done and it will be done.
To me this is an example of wishful thinking dominating, triumphing over, scientific reality. I would like to hear your comments, both of you, on that assertion.
11:10 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
I'm happy to be first.
Nobody knows whether it can be done. The point is that Great Britain just announced a decision a few days ago to look at its 2021 census and consider whether there are completely drastic alternatives to taking the census that could be applied in the United Kingdom.
It's applied in Scandinavia, in very different circumstances, but they said that 2011 is so close that they will not do anything to it. They'll let it go ahead as planned, and they'll think about 2021.
The National Statistics Council is doing something better. They are saying to do what we can do for 2011 and then think about other things that can be done for 2016. I think that's a very constructive proposal.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
We've heard a number of people talk about the fact that certain European countries--Denmark, Sweden, and others--have abandoned the census process we use and that perhaps we should be looking in that direction. However, we've also heard recently that they have adopted a system in which the information is gathered based on large databases and population registers.
I suspect that Statistics Canada has studied what goes on in other countries. I'd be interested in knowing your views on the direction that's been taken in some of those countries and whether, specifically, those are less intrusive.
11:15 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
I've served as the chair of the Conference of European Statisticians and also as the chair of the OECD statistics committee, and I've been president of the International Statistical Institute, so I have some awareness of what's happening in other countries. I can't say that it's my life's expertise.
The census in those Scandinavian countries is taking place in a completely different manner and is based on pre-existing registers, which are quite intrusive. Everybody who moves residence has to register with the police, compulsorily. Everybody who changes jobs has to have that registered, either by oneself or by the employer, compulsorily. When anybody enrols in an educational institution or leaves an educational institution, that enters a register. Income--earned and other kinds of income--enters in great detail those registers. Then, of course, once those are there, they can be brought together at relatively low cost and with a very high level of precision, because they're all based on compulsory collection.
Whether that's appropriate in Canada is not for me to say. If it were there, Statistics Canada would be very happy to use it and certainly consider how it compares with the traditional census.
What I would also say, however, is that it's very expensive if you consider it as a statistical collection. If statistics is a byproduct, then of course it's very cheap, because the data are already there; they can just be brought together for statistical purposes. But if it's put in place for the purposes of statistics, I suspect that it would be many times the cost of the census.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Could you reassure worried Canadians and explain to them that the information collected by Statistics Canada for censuses, especially through the mandatory long questionnaire, is protected?
You have certainly specified that no personal information has ever been disclosed in Statistics Canada's entire history. But, in order to reassure Canadians, could you briefly describe the process that guarantees data confidentiality?
11:15 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
Well, there is no quick answer, because there's an endless number of steps, processes, and safeguards that we build into everything we do, including the last time, when we had the census in 2006. We ordered a security audit in which basically we mandated security firms who specialize in “white hat” hacking, as it's called, to try to hack into the database to try to penetrate our security. They couldn't.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for coming here today.
Mr. Sheikh, does your home need renovations?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Mr. Fellegi, does your home need renovations?
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
I don't think so.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
We've gone through major renovations. We have some minor ones to do.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Well, I notice that my colleagues across the way are laughing at that question, but I take it that your position on this question is that it is important, because you have made it mandatory on the long-form census in the past.
Should something like that be a mandatory question?
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
I think I want to emphasize the fact that we are a data collection agency. We are not the users of the data. We hold consultations, and it is the users of the data who tell what data they need.
If there are users out there who need information on renovations, or there are policies of the government that depend on that kind of information, and they ask us to collect that information, our job is to make sure that we collect the best possible information.
So you should ask that question of the people who are actually the users of that information.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Well, I find it interesting that you've distanced yourself from that question, because the next question is, then, is it worth threatening to imprison Canadians for your users?
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
Again, I think that's a question that the government needs to answer. If the government doesn't want people to go to jail, it's not my issue. The government can go and change legislation. I don't have any problem with that.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
So you don't have any problem, then, with the government making those types of questions voluntary?
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
I have problems with the consequences of making something voluntary, and I've explained that the quality of the data would fall.
The simple point I'm making is that the government has every right to do whatever they want to do lawfully. I have no issue on that. However, the point I'm trying to make is that if the government makes those decisions, some of those decisions may have an impact on the quality of the data. I cannot provide the same quality of data with a different legislation than I can with this. As long as it is understood that the quality of the data is lower, that's the end of it.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
So my question to you is this: Is it worth imprisoning Canadians in return for that data?
11:20 a.m.
Former employee of Statistics Canada, As an Individual
It's not a question for me to answer, sir.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I think the government has answered that by making this voluntary.
