Evidence of meeting #5 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marta Morgan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Helen McDonald  Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry
Anne-Marie Lévesque  Senior General Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Industry

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Good morning, members of this committee. Welcome to our fifth meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, this March 25, 2010.

We are here pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) to study Canada's foreign ownership rules and regulations in the telecommunications sector. Before us today we have three witnesses from Industry Canada: Madame Morgan, Madame McDonald, and Madame Lévesque. So welcome to all three of you. We'll begin with 10 minutes of opening remarks and then with questions and comments from members of the committee.

Madame Morgan.

9 a.m.

Marta Morgan Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for having us here with you today. I'm the assistant deputy minister of the strategic policy sector at Industry Canada. I would like to introduce Helen McDonald, who is the assistant deputy minister of spectrum, information technologies and telecommunications, and Ms. Anne-Marie Lévesque, who is our senior general counsel.

Before responding to questions, I would like to provide the committee today with an overview of Canada's telecommunications foreign investment restrictions and to talk a little bit about how they compare to other countries, what previous studies on this issue have been done, and what they've concluded.

Telecommunications is a $40 billion industry—a critical component of the modern day digital economy, and an integral part of society as a whole—we have all come to rely on broadband Internet access, BlackBerrys, text messaging and satellite delivered television.

Because of the importance of the sector, we need to assure ourselves that, from a regulatory perspective, we are doing all that we can to ensure that Canadians are receiving innovative services at competitive prices. In 2006, the government issued a policy directive to the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission to rely on market forces as much as possible and to regulate telecommunications only where necessary.

In 2008, as part of the auction of radio spectrum, a portion of the spectrum was set aside for bidding by new market entrants only in order to encourage increased competition in the provision of mobile wireless services.

The government's objective has been to ensure that Canadians can benefit from increased competition and investment in the telecommunications sector, which will lead to greater innovation and more competitive prices and availability of services for consumers.

That brings me to the issue at hand: the telecommunications foreign investment restrictions. There is a concern that these restrictions are indeed impairing the growth and competitiveness of the industry to the detriment of consumers and the industry as a whole.

I would like to clarify up front that when I speak of foreign investment restrictions in the Canadian context, I am referring to the legislated Canadian ownership and control requirements, which I will detail later, but which take the form of restrictions on voting shares and on the control in fact held by foreign entities.

Canada's formal ownership and control restrictions for telecommunications are relatively new. While they were announced in 1987, they were not formally enacted until 1993. The decision to introduce these restrictions was made during the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement negotiations to mirror existing U.S. restrictions and ensure that these could be grandfathered within the FTA.

In announcing the government's intentions in the House of Commons in 1987, the then Minister of Communications, Flora MacDonald, said that they were necessary to “ensure...national sovereignty” over this vital sector of the Canadian economy and for reasons of “national...security” and “economic, social, and cultural well-being”.

The Telecommunications Act containing these restrictions came into force in 1993. Section 16 of that act specifies that telecommunications common carriers need to be Canadian-owned and -controlled, and that to meet this requirement they must satisfy three criteria: that 80% or more of voting shares must be held by Canadians; that 80% of the board of directors must be Canadian; and that the corporation is “not otherwise controlled by persons that are not Canadians”, what many have come to call the control-in-fact test.

These provisions, like most of the Telecommunications Act, are administered by the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission, otherwise known as the CRTC.

The Telecommunications Act is supplemented by a set of regulations, the Canadian telecommunications common carrier ownership and control regulations of 1994. These regulations determine who can be considered to be Canadian for purposes of the act—for example, trusts, pension funds, and partnerships. In the case of corporations, the regulations require that at least 66 and two-thirds per cent of the voting shares must be held by Canadians and that the corporation not be otherwise controlled by non-Canadians.

I should point out that wireless carriers are subject to ownership and control requirements that are virtually identical to those imposed by the Telecommunications Act. This is done pursuant to the radio communication regulations under the Radiocommunication Act. This is the legislation governing the management of radio spectrum, which is administered by Industry Canada. Before issuing spectrum licences, Industry Canada must confirm compliance with these ownership and control requirements.

The next major development relative to these investment restrictions was the conclusion, in 1998, of the Agreement on Basic Telecommunications, as part of the World Trade Organization's General Agreement on Trade and Services. Canada was a signatory to that historic agreement. At the time of the negotiations, there was considerable pressure placed on Canada and other countries to allow foreign competition into their markets. In the end, most OECD countries committed to liberalizing their markets including removing barriers to foreign participation, but Canada did not. We did agree to liberalize for international services.

To implement this commitment, the Telecommunications Act was amended in 1998 to remove the investment restrictions from satellite earth stations and international submarine cables.

This initial large-scale liberalization of barriers to foreign participation in telecom markets was followed by further progressive liberalizations by other countries. The OECD maintains a biannual tabulation of this, for which the latest information is from 2008. As of that year, 18 of 30 OECD countries had no restrictions on foreign ownership in telecommunication sectors. Only nine countries had any significant restrictions, six of which were limited to restrictions on former state-owned monopolies.

According to the OECD, Mexico, South Korea, and Canada have the most closed markets with respect to foreign investment. However, since 2008 both Mexico and Korea began to ease restrictions. Mexico now allows complete foreign ownership of wireless, and a bill to liberalize the wireline market is before their Congress. Korea allows 49% foreign equity but may liberalize further in the context of its ongoing trade negotiations with the United States.

Of all OECD countries, Canada now has one of the most restrictive regimes for foreign investment in telecommunications. A number of groups have addressed this issue in recent issues. The first of these was this very committee, which undertook a thorough review in 2003. It found that telecommunications are a critical element of the global network knowledge-based economy. The committee found that the restrictions stifle Canada's productivity and economic growth performance, play a role in impeding capital investment by new entrants into the telecommunication sector, and inhibit the diffusion of new communication technologies and Canadian access to modern telecommunication services. The committee recommended the complete removal of Canada's foreign ownership restrictions specific to telecommunications common carriers.

The telecommunications policy review panel in 2006 was the next to look at this. Chaired by Dr. Gerri Sinclair, it was asked to review Canada's telecommunication policy framework and to recommend how to modernize it to ensure a strong and internationally competitive industry. It found that, among OECD countries, Canada has maintained one of the most restrictive and inflexible sets of rules limiting foreign investment in the telecommunication sector. This panel paid particular attention to the wireless sector. It found Canada to be one of the few OECD countries without a major international wireless provider and concluded that the quality, pricing, and availability of wireless services would improve significantly if Canada's foreign investment restrictions were liberalized. The panel recommended a phased liberalization, proposing that foreign investment in firms holding less than 10% of the Canadian telecommunications market be liberalized immediately, with full telecommunications liberalization being postponed pending the resolution of how to deal with the cable industry in the context of a review of Canadian broadcasting policies.

More recently, we have the competition policy review panel, which reported in 2008. This group looked at a wide range of issues, not only telecommunications, but it had a number of specific comments on the impact of telecom restrictions on the industry. It found that they affect new and existing firms by reducing competitive pressure to minimize or eliminate efficiencies in business practices and activities, by limiting sources of financing, distorting financing structures, and preventing technology transfer. The competition panel echoed the recommendations of the telecom panel in recommending phased liberalization.

Before turning the floor over to you, I would like to take a brief moment to speak to the particular challenge these restrictions pose for the satellite sector. As you are aware, Budget 2010 indicated the government's intention to remove existing restrictions on satellites.

Canadian satellite providers face an immediate challenge. I spoke earlier of the changes made in 1998 to liberalize international services. Since that time, a large number of foreign satellites have been approved to offer service in Canada and are in direct competition with Canadian suppliers such as Telesat. This has created an uneven playing field, because Canadian providers must compete against these foreign providers both in Canada and abroad. The problem is that the foreign providers are not subject to investment restrictions either in Canada or at home.

The satellite industry is increasingly global in nature. Removal of the restrictions on foreign ownership will allow Canadian firms to access foreign capital and know-how, invest in new and advanced technologies, and develop strategic global relationships that will enable them to achieve economies of scale and participate fully in foreign markets.

The Speech from the Throne has made a broader commitment. I quote:

Our Government will open Canada's doors further to venture capital and to foreign investment in key sectors, including the satellite and telecommunications industries, giving Canadian firms access to the funds and expertise they need.

This is an issue with significant potential implications for both the competitiveness of the Canadian telecommunications industry and the quality and prices of services made available to consumers. It's important that the government take time to consult and to fully consider the options before moving forward.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for inviting us here today to discuss this important issue.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Madam Morgan.

We'll begin comments and questions from members with Mr. Garneau.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We met here today because of a motion, moved by my party, to address two important issues. The first is the government's decision on Globalive. The CRTC considered that Globalive does not have enough Canadian content, while the government took a different position. So I would certainly like to understand that better, but I will not ask you these questions myself because I hope to be able to bring them before the CRTC and, ideally, to address them to the minister later.

The other reason for our meeting today is to explore the issue of foreign ownership, and you talked about that in your speech.

There are a number of questions I would like to ask you concerning foreign ownership, because as you can appreciate, there are some very strong opinions being expressed across the spectrum on this particular issue.

The first question I would like to ask you goes to the reason for which foreign ownership restrictions were put in place in the first place. Let me quote the main objectives of the Canadian telecommunications policy: it's the maintenance of Canada's identity and sovereignty. I think it's important to review whether the arguments that were put in place when the act was written still apply today. I think that's a very valid exercise.

I would like to have your opinion, as it applies only to the Telecommunications Act, on whether, if we were to increase allowable foreign ownership in the telecommunications sector, there is the potential to have an impact on our identity and sovereignty.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Marta Morgan

This is an issue that has been debated in many sectors of the Canadian economy, and there is much evidence, particularly on the economic side, that shows the strong benefits of foreign investment to Canada.

What we have seen when we look across the board at many sectors, including telecommunications, is progressive liberalization over a number of decades of foreign investment regulations, across many countries and in many sectors.

In particular, for example, there is in telecommunications the liberalization post-1998 in most OECD countries. We've seen virtually all European countries lift most of their foreign investment restrictions on telecommunications. While I'm not an expert in European identity, I think I would argue that from an identity perspective, Europeans—the French, the Germans, the English—have all for the most part lifted these restrictions without negative impact from a cultural or identity perspective.

Telecommunications technologies are a means of transmission. They provide the opportunity to Canadians to communicate with each other faster and better and with more people at once. That ability to communicate with one another is being used by Canadians and by people around the globe. It's creating new opportunities for all of us, by having the best possible services and by having them available at the lowest possible price—and to the most people, to enable them to take advantage of them.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you.

Those who have expressed concern, and there are some people who are obviously against increasing foreign ownership, often bring up an expression that I've heard repeatedly, which is that those who own the pipeline will eventually control the content. Is that, in your opinion, a misunderstanding of the situation, or is there a way to clearly separate the issues so that the pipeline is really considered as one aspect and the content is really a separate issue by itself?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Marta Morgan

I think it's important to be clear that it is the Broadcasting Act that regulates the delivery of content in Canada, content provision, and my minister has been quite clear on this point, that we are not looking at culture here and we are not looking at broadcasting.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

So what you're saying is that if a foreign company owned a telecommunications carrier, the fact that they might own this previously Canadian telecommunications company, there would be no threat with respect to issues of cultural identity and sovereignty.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Marta Morgan

Let me give an example. I think the satellite sector is actually quite a good example of this, where Telesat provides services to Canadian broadcasters. Telesat provides the mechanism, the satellite signal, the satellite space, for broadcasters to diffuse their signal to Canadians, but it's those broadcasting distribution units, the BDUs, who are regulated under the Broadcasting Act. They continue to be regulated, and the content they provide, the Canadian content that they're required to provide, continues to be regulated. One is the means of transmission and the separable issue is the regulation of content.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you.

I'll just go back to why there was this concern way back on identity and sovereignty. Why do you think that was there in the first place, and that it's no longer the issue it used to be?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Marta Morgan

It's hard for me to speculate on that, not having been part of that debate, but I do think that the nature of these debates has changed over the years. We have had many debates in Canada about what economic ownership means to our culture and our identity, and it has spanned decades. We have nonetheless been on a course of further openness to foreign direct investment across the board, which has served us well economically. I would leave it to others to judge the impact it has had on culture and identity.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

I note that the OECD and European countries in the OECD have liberalized their sector, but they also fund their broadcasters three or four times per capita than we do. Perhaps that's the reason for their policies.

Monsieur Cardin.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before going into the order from December and the CRTC decision, I would like to go back to the spectrum auction. You said earlier that: “Before issuing spectrum licences, Industry Canada must confirm compliance with these ownership and control requirements.“ I will ask you three questions and then you can answer them.

Do you check with the CRTC to see whether all bidders comply with part II of the Telecommunications Act? Next, who gets the money when a bidder wins a share of the bid—say $442 million? Finally, should we conclude that, if the winning bidder is not defined as being Canadian under part II, and pays the $442 million to the government, should that bidder get the entire amount of the bid back?

9:20 a.m.

Helen McDonald Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Let me help with that answer.

We don't check with the CRTC beforehand to see whether they are Canadian-owned and -controlled in order to allow them to bid for spectrum. A number of the companies are new entrants. They are putting together business cases and business models and they're putting together financing. In that last auction we had something like 25 bidders, but only 15 were successful. It is at these 15 that we looked for Canadian ownership and control purposes.

As you can imagine, if you are putting together a company and putting together your financing and you make a bid and are successful and you continue to look for financing and partners and so on, that takes a certain amount of time; therefore, there is a certain amount—

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

What you are telling me is that you do not check with the CRTC to see whether they comply with part II before accepting bids. The answer is no. So who gets the money? To whom does the $442 million go, for example? To the government?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

I'm presuming you're talking about the spectrum auction revenues. They go straight to the consolidated revenue fund. So yes, the money goes to the government and is lodged there. Before anyone bids, they are very well aware that they must comply with Canadian ownership and control, if they wish to get a licence. So they may win the bid, but they do not have the licence until the Canadian ownership and control requirements are satisfied.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

And if we ever decide that they are not following part II, would the bidder get the $442 million back?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum, Information Technologies and Telecommunications, Department of Industry

Helen McDonald

We are looking against the radio regulations requirements, not against the Telecommunications Act. We've never actually had a situation, to my belief, in which we've had to refund it, because after having paid that amount of money, of course the company is very interested in bringing into compliance their ownership and control.

I could get you further chapter and verse on this, but it's my belief that if someone were successful and unable to bring their ownership structure into compliance, the government would re-auction the spectrum, and if there were a difference between what was brought in the first time and the second time, it would be the obligation of the company.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

As in the case of Globalive, if the CRTC decision had been respected by the government...The CRTC knew that Globalive had already paid the $442 million to the government when it announced its decision. We can assume that it did not make the decision lightly. Section 116 of the decision reads as follows:

Notwithstanding these additional changes, significant concerns remain with respect to the control in fact of Globalive by Orascom. In the present case, the record shows that Orascom, a non-Canadian holds two-thirds of Globalive's equity; is the principal source of technical expertise; and provides Globalive with access to an established wireless trademark.

First, do you think that Orascom really holds two-thirds of Globalive's equity? Second, in your view, by showing its willingness to amend the Telecommunications Act in the Speech from the Throne, does the government not admit that the order goes against the spirit of the Telecommunications Act?

9:25 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Marta Morgan

Mr. Chair, first of all, I would like to note that under section 12 of the Telecommunications Act, Parliament provided to the Governor in Council the authority to vary decisions by the CRTC. In this particular case, the Governor in Council chose to vary this decision of the CRTC based on a very careful examination of the facts and a rigorous application of the Canadian ownership and control requirements. The test for Canadian ownership and control comprises both legal requirements and a factual requirement.

Perhaps it would be helpful if I turned to my colleague Madame Lévesque to explain what those requirements are and how they are applied.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

I did ask a very specific question when I asked whether you thought that Orascom really held two-thirds of Globalive's equity.

9:25 a.m.

Anne-Marie Lévesque Senior General Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Industry

You are probably aware that there is presently a legal challenge to the Governor in Council's decision on Canadian control in this company. We must therefore limit our comments to what is public so that we do not prejudice the government before the courts. So our comments today must be limited to what is in the public domain. You understand our situation.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

It is as if you are telling me you think that the company does hold two-thirds of the equity, but that the shares are not necessarily all voting shares.

9:25 a.m.

Senior General Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Industry

Anne-Marie Lévesque

In the CRTC order and decision, there is a brief explanation of the situation of Globalive at the time the decision was announced. As to the de jure test, that is the legal control and the control of voting shares, the CRTC and the government agree that the company is in fact controlled by Canadians. The next test is a de facto test. There is a whole body of case law that led to a de facto test. De factocontrol is an investor's ability, for example, to influence the day-to-day operations of an organization, the company in this case. In light of the facts in the Globalive file, the government was of the opinion that, as the order shows, the foreign company, Orascom, does not have the ability to control the day-to-day operations of Globalive, that it perhaps has a certain degree of influence through its financial investment but that is not the same as thede facto control required by the case law.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Mr. Cardin and Ms. Lévesque.

Mr. Lake, you have the floor.