Evidence of meeting #14 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was e-commerce.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sorin Cohn  Executive in Residence, Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance
Darrell MacMullin  Managing Director, PayPal Canada
Dan Kelly  Senior Vice-President, Legislative Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Jason Kee  Director, Policy and Legal Affairs, Entertainment Software Association of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to the 14th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

It's good that we've had an update on Movember now, and now we have to move to the actual meeting.

We have the following witnesses before us: from the Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance, Sorin Cohn, executive in residence; and from PayPal, Darrell MacMullin, managing director, and Martha Cass, head of public relations.

Mr. MacMullin, I understand you'll be giving the opening remarks. Is that correct?

Okay.

From the Canadian Federation of Independent Business is Dan Kelly, the senior vice-president of legislative affairs; and from the Entertainment Software Association of Canada, we have Jason Kee, director of policy and legal affairs.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, you'll remember that both the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and the Entertainment Software Association were previously before us and gave their opening remarks. During that meeting we had to leave for a vote, so they're back with us to actually get some time before the committee now. Since they've given their opening remarks, I'll just give them maybe two minutes to highlight some of those remarks to refresh your memory, but we'll follow the order as usual and the agenda that's before you.

Mr. Cohn, please start with your opening remarks for six minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Sorin Cohn Executive in Residence, Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance

Thank you very much.

Let me open my presentation here quickly.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

I understand, Mr. Cohn, that your presentation will be in English, but the documents were distributed in both official languages, so members should have those in front of them en français and in English.

3:30 p.m.

Executive in Residence, Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance

Sorin Cohn

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased and honoured to be here on behalf of the Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance, which has been leading the field for the past—

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Just one moment, Mr. Cohn. We're just waiting for the distribution of the text of your remarks to members.

3:30 p.m.

Executive in Residence, Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance

Sorin Cohn

Thank you very much.

By the way, I'm going to do just the second part of the presentation that my colleague, Barry Gander, and I have prepared on the issues related to e-commerce and commercialization. I will talk about the pan-industry study CATA led over the past year, together with a number of industry associations and national and provincial organizations, to try to understand the critical issues concerning commercialization in Canada. I do this in the context of the fact that for a number of years, there has been a lot of wringing of hands and biting off of heads because of how poorly Canada is doing in terms of innovation and the huge innovation gap we are facing. E-commerce is one significant technology in the process of creating a more effective environment for commercialization in Canada.

I'll just go very quickly through these charts. If at any time you need more information, I would be pleased to come here gain, in whatever format, to discuss the issues.

Research is nothing else but the transformation of money into knowledge. The transformation of knowledge is imbedded in products and services and in an understanding of market requirements. The transformation of that knowledge into money is called commercialization. I want to point to the fact that we have been moving for some years from the industrial era, during which the name of the game in most industrial concerns was product control and direct-cost minimization. For that game companies would try to do as much as possible inside the corporation.

We are moving into what I call an integrated knowledge-services economy in which one company may do design services, another company manufacturing, another company marketing, and another company development. The name of the game is collaborative value creation in intelligent communities. Those intelligent communities may be virtual ones, which are globalized, or they may be geographic ones. In parallel, CATA is driving what we call the i-Canada initiative--meaning the intelligent Canada initiative--to try to raise the competitiveness of Canadian communities, community by community, through the use of collaborative ecosystems, ultra-fast broadband, and intelligent services. Collaboration is the key to the game.

The study we carried out was supported by BDC, EDC, the Ontario Ministry of Research and Innovation, and a number of other institutions. The goal was to understand what industry thinks and does and what it plans to do about commercialization effectiveness. We were also hoping that some of the results would be of interest to key policy-makers in terms of policy and programs that work and policy and programs that do not work.

Basically, the continuum of innovation goes from ideas to technology to product. It then goes through some good market channels to customers and then hopefully to satisfied customers. It's only through that process that you create a viable business that by itself can provide the necessary feedback for the economy to grow.

The conclusion of our study—and I'll show you a number of findings here—is that Canada does not suffer from an innovation gap. The innovation gap has received traditional support in terms of science and technology culture, in terms of discovery skills, in terms of labs, and in terms of big “R” for research and small “d” for development. But there has been no “c” for commercialization. What Canada suffers from is a commercialization gap, which requires focus and adequate support. This involves a business and product-service culture, production operations, financial processes, marketing and sales skills, global connectivity, and customer focus. If at the end of a commercialization process there is no money created and no economic value, we cannot talk about real commercialization.

One of the key findings of our study was that about 17% of the Canadian companies that participated--more than 1,000 companies actually responded to the survey--did not have any new products or services in the past five years. Unless these companies are selling iron ore or metal bars that have not changed for the past 50 years, how can they stay competitive? That's a major issue.

Also, a high number of companies have tried but have failed to commercialize their innovations. Other companies, about 56%, have not yet finished their most significant innovation in terms of its commercialization.

The obstacles to commercialization are first, lack of financing. Second, and the most significant, is insufficient marketing effort, uncertain market demand, lack of market knowledge, inappropriate customer targeting, and lack of sales experience and such. Poor collaboration is another thing that is significant in terms of success in commercialization.

Those are the major issues telling us that Canada suffers from such a commercialization gap.

In principle, Canada is very much a nation of small and medium-sized enterprises. More than 99% of companies in Canada are small and medium-sized enterprises with less than 500 people. Actually, 80% of those have less than 50 people.

A complete company, in order to be successful in its competition--and now the competition is global--requires technology and industry expertise in whatever domain it operates. It requires management and operational skills, including marketing, in whatever domain it operates. It requires market access and connectivity in whatever industry sector it operates.

A small company cannot afford to bring all of that expertise inside; in order to succeed, they need to collaborate. Among the issues is Canada are the lack of commercialization expertise, as we have seen before; a weak culture of collaboration; and insufficient funding. Startups in Canada are only getting about 36% of the funding that equivalent or similar kinds of U.S. companies get.

More significantly, we did a study and found out that the average innovation time in Canada, from the time someone gets the idea to the time a product is ready for market, is about 22 months. Surprise, surprise: the commercialization time, that is, the time from when the product is in the market to the time it breaks even, is one and a half times longer.

Also, usually companies are putting all their efforts into the innovation time, and then they find out that they do not have enough room to survive in the commercialization time; they've...[Inaudible--Editor] and are being acquired largely by U.S. businesses that reap the benefits of Canadian innovation.

Anything that can be done to enhance the commercialization effectiveness would be very significant for Canadian industry, and that includes commerce technologies. So we are making a number of recommendations—and the white paper is going to be issued by the end of this week—given the fact that greatest risk factors involve not the science and technology aspects, but the business leadership and the commercialization effectiveness of companies.

First of all, we are making recommendations to industry itself in terms of each company focusing on competitiveness, and strategizing, planning, and structuring their activities according to their business plan, collaborating to conquer, and targeting marketing and sales in advance of getting the product ready.

In terms of recommendations to governments, both federal and provincial, we are making recommendations to create a flexible framework, with accountability and coherent structures for coordinated programs—and we are very much in line with some of what the Jenkins report recommended—to revitalize the Canadian VC industry; to provide direct innovation investment in industry, as well as purchases from industry; and to support Canadian IP protection. And my surprise, there I found out that none of the government programs support Canadians saving their innovations, or protect them from other businesses. We also recommend promoting anchor company relationships, and support for marketing and e-commerce technologies--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Cohn. I'm sorry that I have to interrupt you there, but we need to move on now.

Mr. MacMullin, for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Darrell MacMullin Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

My name is Darrell MacMullin. I'm the Managing Director of PayPal in Canada. I'd like to thank you all for the opportunity for PayPal to be here. I'd be happy to answer any questions during the question and answer period as well.

I have personally worked in the e-commerce industry in Canada nearly since its inception, in the early days launching retailers like Chapters and Chapters online. I also helped bring eBay into Canada. About six years ago, I built up the Canadian operation for PayPal as well. I've seen the evolution of PayPal and the evolution of the marketplace into e-commerce over many years. It's intriguing to see where the industry is going and some of the things we can do as an industry to make it excel further.

From our perspective, PayPal is actually growing now at about three times the rate of e-commerce in this market, and it has been for several years. Being part of PayPal, I'm excited about that, but I don't know what that necessarily says about the state of e-commerce in this market. There is some “static-ness”, but we believe we're helping the industry grow in a lot of ways. We're helping merchants build e-commerce businesses very cost-effectively and to compete internationally. We're bringing a lot of consumer confidence to the table. But there's a lot more the overall industry can be doing as well.

First and foremost, one of the most important things is consumer confidence. This actually hasn't changed a lot over time. The whole issue encompassing privacy concerns and security is still one the biggest issues why people don't transact online.

From a merchant adoption standpoint, although we are seeing more merchants building a website presence, they have still found it very cost-prohibitive or not cost-effective to actually make transactions online.

Finally, one of our strengths that we don't leverage enough is actually Canadian innovation. From a developer's standpoint and a technology standpoint, this market is actually very ripe in terms of young entrepreneurs, universities, and people who are able to build out and leverage a lot of the new technologies. But as an industry, we haven't been able to connect them to commerce as effectively as we could.

Here I'd like to talk about PayPal in general and what we actually do. Sometimes it's confusing as to whom PayPal actually is and what we do. Probably the best way to describe PayPal is as the payments provider that sits on top of a lot of the other payment networks. If you think of the Internet, you think of a very open network that's global in scale. In you think of payments in general, they're typically closed and domestic in nature. Those two worlds often don't mesh well together in a lot of ways, and we've seen that cause a lot of issues over time, whether with domestic markets, new technologies, building out payments infrastructure, or cross-border buying and cross-border selling. Probably the best way to describe PayPal is that it's like a universal adaptor that bridges these two worlds. We enable and take a lot of the friction out of the process for both merchants and consumers to transact effectively online.

One of the reasons why we do that, from a consumer's standpoint, is that the core of our offering is what we call the PayPal account. A lot of people consider it to be the original digital wallet for the Internet. There's a lot of talk about digital wallets these days in the industry, and later on we can get into where we think the industry is going. But generally how the PayPal account works today is via a very simple process for someone to sign up for an account. It's free for any consumer to set up a PayPal account. You can enter and store your billing and shipping information. You can add credit cards, bank accounts, and maintain a cash balance in multiple currencies. It adds a lot of basic utility for you to be able to transact online very effectively. Most importantly, it delivers a much more seamless customer experience. You're not having to pull out your financial information every time you're transacting, or every time you're re-entering information for your credit card, billing, and shipping—all of those pieces where we've seen tons of data that slow down the e-commerce process and has people drop off in the conversion process.

The key component of what PayPal provides is that when a consumer makes a transaction with PayPal, they can use their existing credit card, bank account, or cash balance without any of their financial information ever being shared as part of that transaction. That's probably one of the primary reasons why consumers love using our service. No matter whom they are transacting with—a larger retailer, or a small site they've never done business with, domestically or internationally—they know that their credit card information is never shared with that merchant, and they don't know where that information is being stored if they're just entering it somewhere else. The flip side of that as well, as to why merchants love PayPal, is they don't have to worry about collecting and storing credit card information.

We know that dealing with PCI compliance has been very problematic for a lot of merchants. It's an additional cost and barrier to doing e-commerce. From PayPal's perspective, we take the merchants completely out of the scope of that whole process. They never have to deal with PCI compliance to begin with, because they never get that financial information.

Along with that, we've essentially created a very closed-loop network for merchants and consumers to be able to transact safely, and a lot more seamlessly in how their information is shared. It also allows us to monitor those transactions a lot more effectively from a fraud management standpoint. We know a lot about the buyer and the seller as part of that closed-loop network. It doesn't matter where the buyer and seller are located or what type of financial instrument they are using, we can monitor those transactions far differently compared to conventional credit card payments online.

The result is that the fraud rate through PayPal is significantly lower than any other payment network. It's less than half the overall industry average. We're protecting consumers and merchants at the same time, while delivering better buyer and seller experiences.

As we move forward this whole notion of e-commerce has historically been perceived as another channel to do business. But the way e-commerce is going, it's not about being online and offline and it's not about e-commerce. The mobile phone is certainly coming along and morphing those worlds together. In PayPal's perspective, the notion of one versus the other is going away very quickly. We embrace the idea of the convergence of the two worlds.

There are some interesting roles that PayPal can play to enable commerce to happen for merchants, whether they are looking to transact through mobile phones, tablets, televisions, or in-store with their mobile phones. There is one seamless experience and there's one wallet that can essentially deliver a lot of utility, regardless of how they are interacting.

We don't believe that taking credit card credentials and simply stuffing them on a phone is the way to transform that experience to the next level. PayPal has been very focused on actually taking PayPal credentials and making them available in the cloud. That allows people to be able to access their PayPal credentials from any device, any time, and in any way. Whether they are using a tablet, a mobile phone in a store, their card, or their Xbox gaming system, they are accessing their PayPal account at any time to make transactions at any time. Their financial information is never stored, shared, or transmitted across any of these networks.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Mr. MacMullin, I have to cut you off there. That's all of your time.

Now we will have Mr. Kelly for two minutes to give us the highlights of his opening statements from a previous meeting.

3:50 p.m.

Dan Kelly Senior Vice-President, Legislative Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Thanks.

I know that my colleague, Corinne Pohlmann, shared with you the views and surveys that CFIB has done on this important subject over the last couple of years. There are a couple of other points I would note.

First, governments are still trying to get their heads around how to regulate and tax firms in this world. That is a major struggle and creates a lot of uncertainty for a number of firms that are looking to be involved in this business, particularly for technology and other high-innovation sectors of the economy. I agree with Mr. Cohn's comments.

We're hearing a lot about the CRA impediments around taxing IT contractors and others in this industry. Regulations at the provincial level are often significant impediments. This is a new kind of work, and governments can't really get their heads around it, try as they might.

The other thing I want to mention quickly is the cost of accepting online payments. I know you had presentations from some in the financial services sector, and I want to throw one note of caution in there.

No impediment has been put in place by the code of conduct for the credit and debit card industries in Canada. Minister Flaherty's code of conduct is an excellent tool. It's working well and is completely flexible to allow e-commerce and mobile payments to happen in a robust way. There is no impediment in the code to that happening. I just wanted to reinforce that message. I think Interac shared some similar views on that front.

The biggest problem we've had with electronic payments has been the cost, particularly the cost imposed by the banks, and Visa and Mastercard. Of course, that is the bridge by which PayPal often works too.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Kee, for a couple of minutes, to recap, please.

3:50 p.m.

Jason Kee Director, Policy and Legal Affairs, Entertainment Software Association of Canada

Thank you very much.

The Entertainment Software Association of Canada represents the Canadian video game industry. Something that some people don't know is that Canada is actually a global powerhouse in video game development. We're ranked third in the world in video game production. We directly employ over 16,000 people across the country in a wide variety of high-paying jobs. More importantly, we're actually still growing at a rate of 17% year over year. In fact, Eidos just announced that they're going to be adding 150 new employees to their roster over the next year. Given the fact that our average salaries are about two and a half times the Canadian average, it will amount to just shy of $10 million being added directly to the Quebec economy, which is great.

For our industry the e-commerce marketplace is critically important. We're in the process of transitioning from a packaged-good retail model into a digital distribution model, so the development of a robust marketplace is very important to us. There's a wide variety of issues that go into developing and maintaining a robust marketplace, but my previous statement listed three of them.

First and foremost from our perspective is updating and modernizing our copyright regime. Essentially, our products are copyrighted products; they need to be properly protected in the online marketplace. A properly updated and modern regime will include robust protection of technological protection measures, or digital locks, as they're sometimes referred to, primarily because they're used to protect products in the online marketplace and to support not just music CDs and DVDs, but also Netflix and the next generation of streaming platforms, Xbox LIVE, and those kinds of digital distribution platforms as well.

Other key points are, first, to make sure that we have widespread broadband penetration. Essentially, the e-commerce marketplace is not going to exist if everyone does not have access to it. That's a critical priority for all of us, I think. Also, similar to copyright, there's the broader range of legislation that will apply to the e-commerce marketplace, including things like anti-spam and e-commerce law, privacy, and so forth. We have to be very careful about these kinds of pieces of legislation when we're implementing them to make sure we're not having any unintended consequences that may adversely affect the development of the market.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Kee, for your brevity and succinctness.

Now we go to Mr. Lake, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses, some of whom are here for the second time.

It's good to see you again.

If I could, I'll start with PayPal and refer to Mr. Kelly's comments here about the cost of payment methods. We have heard a lot about that.

From listening to your presentation, I'm just not 100% clear on where your company's revenues come from. Could you expand on how your revenue model works? For example, we hear a lot about merchant fees in your competitors' worlds. I don't even know if they're competitors or partners, actually.

How do you receive revenue?

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

There are a couple of different ways of looking at this. One of the biggest things that has driven the popularity of PayPal from a merchant's standpoint is the cost. The ongoing cost of getting set up as a merchant if you're just starting out your business is the following. To set up a merchant account in Canada--and we can talk about transaction fees in a second--you typically need to sign a two- to three-year contract. There's some sort of annual fee, a minimum monthly fee, and there could be a number of other fees associated with that, statement fees and the like. Sometimes there are large thresholds that you need to hit, certain levels of volume, or your money will be held back. So it's very cost prohibitive for businesses to start up when they have to pay a lot of upfront costs just to get a merchant account set up and processed.

From PayPal's perspective, we don't charge any contract fee, or any annual or monthly fee. In fact, if you set up a PayPal account and never do any transactions, you never pay any fee at all to us. We're very transparent in our transaction fees. There's a sliding scale from 1.9% to 2.9%, plus 30 cents a transaction, and we've made that as simple as possible for merchants to understand, because it is a net rate as well. So it doesn't matter if you're using a basic credit card, a premium credit card with loyalty points, a Visa, a MasterCard or an American Express card, whether you're processing a China UnionPay card, a Switch Solo card from the UK, or a bank transfer from Germany. You don't need to figure out how to connect to all of those different payment types—and you wouldn't know what type of rate you'd be getting from each one of those transactions. We have a very simple blended rate, so you don't have to worry about what your transaction costs are going to be depending on the funding type.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

How does that transaction work?

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

If you're paying PayPal, you're not paying a Visa fee to Visa, as well as a PayPal fee to PayPal. PayPal is essentially taking that fee and charging it to the merchant. We're taking the cost from Visa and bearing that cost.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

So you're Visa's client in effect?

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

Yes. If it's a Visa transaction, we will pay a cost to Visa and pay for the value of whatever that interchange cost is, and then we will charge the merchant.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

If you receive a payment on a premium card, that would cost you—

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

We absorb the high cost, but we don't pass any additional cost on to the merchant for observing premium cards.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

If people are using premium cards more or everybody just started using premium cards, you would have to pass that on in the form of an increase, I would imagine.

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

No, it doesn't matter if they're processing 100% American Express card transactions that may be at a higher rate, we don't charge the merchant any different pricing. Whatever the funding mix is—that being a variable cost that's going to vary from merchant to merchant, from time period to time period, and by how many of their transactions are basic cards, premium cards, Visa, MasterCard, Amex, bank transfers, or cash balances—we don't charge any different rate to the merchant for that. It's a flat net rate that's published on our website, and that hasn't changed in over eight years.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Seven minutes isn't enough time for me to get in to the “naff” behind that. I'll go on to one other question I had for you.

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, PayPal Canada

Darrell MacMullin

Generally speaking, though, most merchants have seen, especially on the smaller end.... The larger enterprise merchants tend to negotiate a lot more heavily with Visa and MasterCard to get their rates down. We're probably a little less competitive on the enterprise level, but the small and medium-sized businesses typically see significant cost savings from PayPal versus typical merchant accounts at the transaction level. And then those additional infrastructure costs don't exist with PayPal as well.