Industry Committee on Nov. 4th, 2013

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Sometimes it's easier to find some counterfeit goods than others, such as Duracell batteries with an extra “l”. That's a bit telling. Consumers can point that out. They can notify the shop owner to make sure the shop owner knows they are doing something they may not be aware of, which is violating other peoples' property rights. The rights holders can then exercise their rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You have about 20 seconds left.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Reference is made to a registrar of trademarks and transfers, disclaimers, etc. Is that referring to the Canadian registrar or the international registrar?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The Canadian registrar.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Gallant.

Mr. Thibeault, for five minutes.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and witnesses for being here today.

Through you, Mr. Chair, we at this committee had the fortunate, or I guess the unfortunate, experience of a Canada Goose jacket coming around the table, and it was counterfeit. We were told that many of these jackets are full of animal feces and chicken parts. It's quite grotesque when you think about the toxins that are going into a lot of these products that are coming across the border.

Needless to say, despite the health ramifications, many consumers still buy these products because they think they are getting a good deal.

However, Bill C-8 does include certain consumer exemptions when it comes to personal use, meaning that items in one's possession or baggage will not be subject to penalties under the act.

Minister, could you—or maybe you could pass it off to one of your witnesses—explain how these exemptions will work in practice? For instance, if an individual is found to be in possession of one of those unfortunate jackets, will they be subject to penalties under this act?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

They will not, if it's for personal use, but the person who sold it to them would be. And if they were to resell it, that would be illegal.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I believe Mr. Knubley mentioned something in relation to e-commerce shipments. If the package comes from China, and what's in there is just one counterfeit item, does the bill even apply in that instance?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Could you give that scenario again?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

If I were to—well, not me personally—if someone were to order something from—

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

This guy I know....

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

We need to be very clear on that.

If someone orders something from China and there's only one counterfeit item in that package that's delivered from China, does the bill apply in that instance?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It would depend on the context. The idea is that if it's for commercial purposes or for resale, then you would have a problem, but the rights holder would have the ability to exercise their rights, and a court would decide whether or not they've infringed.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Does the act spell out the specific criteria to differentiate between personal use and potentially criminal actions, or will determination be made on a case-by-case basis with subjective tests being applied?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As with our copyright legislation, from time to time it would come under case-by-case; other times it would be self-evident.

I think that's the answer.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Okay, perfect, thank you.

[Paul Halucha]

Just to add something on that point, as the minister noted, there is a personal exemption that's very clear in the act, so an individual ordering a single item would not be stopped, could not be charged, under the act. However, if through an investigation the authorities became aware that there was, say, an exporter who was consistently sending counterfeit goods into Canada one package by one package, who was counterfeiting goods and sending them into Canada, albeit one package at a time, that could be a justification for a criminal investigation under the act.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

That was exactly what my next question was going to be. If consumer A keeps ordering just one package from China with one item in it, but he gets that package every day, then the bill would apply.

[Paul Halucha]

Exactly. I was speaking about the exporter coming in, but if it's an individual, a consumer, who is consistently ordering over a period of time one package, one package, one package, the exact same principle would apply. It could tip from being a personal exemption under the act to being something of commercial scale.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Minister, you brought up some of what we've heard are dangerous counterfeit goods, such as batteries and electrical equipment, and some of my colleagues have talked about pharmaceutical drugs that are making their way into legitimate supply chains and ending up on retailers' shelves.

Can we hear how Bill C-8 will protect Canadian consumers who unknowingly purchase potentially dangerous counterfeit products found in some of the largest retail chains?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Well, by the simple fact that the sale of such goods will be criminal now.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

For example, we heard about the dollar store earlier. If the dollar store is unknowingly placing items on its shelves, who will do the investigation to say that it's not the dollar store necessarily, it was someone else who sold it to the dollar store? Who's doing that investigation?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The police would do the investigation. The rights holders would trigger the investigation. The courts would determine wrongdoing, and the courts would equally determine the penalty.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.