Industry Committee on April 17th, 2018

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

One of the things we can't miss, especially in the academic sector, is that students are the ultimate customer. When you think about it, they will be the ones who incur personal debt or personal expense by large financial contributions for their tuition, the materials, and the lifestyle required to spend that much time on education.

They will also incur provincial debt, because most provinces are in a deficit right now. They will be responsible for retiring that debt, so that will be incurred by them.

They will also actually secure a participation rate in a federal debt, as we are federally indebted, and they will again have to pay for the allocations and programs that are assigned over the different budgets.

Lastly, they'll also have to incur the costs of those provincial and federal governments of any private sector incentives that are provided for because we are in debt. Reductions in taxes, SR and ED tax credits, and other types of incentives are all borrowing costs that they will then have to pay back.

So when we're looking at fair dealing here, one of the things that hasn't been solved is the fair dealing of students and what they're actually contributing to the greater Canadian economy. Hence, hopefully when we see something come out of this, there will be some type of recognition that they are probably one of the single largest customers who are still not receiving probably the reciprocity they deserve.

With that, the public funding and sharing of information with regard to the grants that are provided for those things have been noted. I believe there's probably some necessity for private sector participation. If you were a benefactor of public funds from the private sector, should there perhaps be some sharing agreements, given the fact that it could be the research and development grants that are provided? It could be, again, tax reductions or abeyance, or government programs where they receive research, and not only that but also staffing components through some of the job creation programs that are out there. Is there perhaps a role in the private sector to actually share when they receive some money from the public purse?

[Charlotte Kiddell]

Could you clarify the last part of your question?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

In your opinion, is there a responsibility for the private sector to share some of their materials and information and product, at the end of the day, if there's a public contribution to a private entity? For example, it could be software, it could be some type of innovation, it could be through the arts community, it could be whatever, where there's a financial contribution of some sort to the individual, to the private profits, that comes from public funds.

[Charlotte Kiddell]

A trend that has long concerned students, particularly the graduate student members of the Canadian Federation of Students, is this issue of earmarking public funding for private sector interests. I'm hopeful that we are seeing a shift away from that in terms of reinvestment in basic investigative research, as we saw in the most recent budget. However, certainly when public money is being spent on research and development, I think it is critical, as Mr. Davidson affirmed, that this research and development remain publicly accessible and within the public interest, yes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Davidson.

[Paul Davidson]

I'll pick up on the most recent budget and the transformative investments that have been made through the granting councils. That's a really important new set of developments that the university community really strongly welcomes.

I was also thinking, as you were speaking, about the investments that are being made around cluster strategy.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's a good example.

[Paul Davidson]

One of the really compelling impacts of that investment is that it is bringing private sector and public sector, and students as well—young researchers—into a collaborative enterprise, to accelerate the exchange of information and ideas for the benefit of Canada's economy. There are places where we're seeing that happening already. As I say, as you go through several weeks and months of hearings, you will hear about an economy that's in digital transition, what the impacts of that are, and how to make sure the core mission of delivering high-quality education to students is preserved.

I'm struck already in the conversation about how different the undergraduate experience is today from 20 or 30 years ago. Look at the development of e-reserves, for example, whereby students can access their required readings 24-7, copyright cleared for appropriate use, from their devices at home. As you're having this wide-ranging conversation, just keep in mind the dramatic shifts over the last 20 years and the opportunities they present for really thoughtful public policy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sheehan, you have five minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much to our presenters for starting off our copyright study. It's the 101st meeting, so this is Copyright 101, I guess, right away.

Paul, your organization, Universities Canada, has made strong statements about the importance of an indigenous education as it relates to truth and reconciliation. You made it a priority. You recognized the barriers that Canada's indigenous people face—first nations, Métis, Inuit—as it relates to getting a university education. In my riding, we have Algoma University, which is a member of Universities Canada, and it underwent a significant transition. It was a former residential school, and it's now a university. The federal government has just recently invested in the university to maintain its infrastructure and also the new Anishinabek Discovery Centre, a $10.2-million project that is going to house the chiefs' libraries—the artifacts, the teachings, a whole bunch of things. They're undergoing that process. The infrastructure is going up. What Chief Shingwauk wanted was a teaching wigwam.

We know that there have been concerns for quite a while from indigenous people about copyright. How could we help indigenous people better protect their traditional knowledge and culture expressions?

[Paul Davidson]

Thank you very much for the question, and thanks for recognizing the work that Canada's universities have been involved in now for close to a decade on improving indigenous access and success, engaging meaningfully in collaborative research, and ensuring that we're engaged in the process of reconciliation coming out of the recommendations of the TRC. As it happens, just this week we're reporting to our members and to all Canadians some of the progress we've made in recent years on these files.

Really, one of the big items ahead for all of us to consider is the question of indigenous knowledge, how it is appropriately recognized academically, how it is appropriately recognized in society, and what the rights are around that indigenous knowledge, beyond copyright to other forms of intellectual property as well. In that regard, something the committee may want to look at is the recent research strategy released by ITK, the Inuit representative group, which really addresses these issues in greater detail. It may be a group that would be interested in appearing before the committee.

The whole reconciliation project is not one of months or years or even decades. It's interesting that at the very start of this conversation you're having today, you're bringing the indigenous conversation to the table. I think that's a very valuable addition.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

For the Canadian Federation of Students, we've been talking about some history here. On April 10, 2013, Adam Awad, then national chairperson of the Canadian Federation of Students, referred to Access Copyright's legal proceedings against York University as a “desperate attempt to wrangle public institutions” into obsolete licensing agreements that ignored the breadth of fair dealing.

I have a few questions around that. First, what changes would the Canadian Federation of Students want to see to Canada's collective licensing regime?

[Charlotte Kiddell]

First and foremost, I would say that the Canadian Federation of Students recognizes that the copyright regime we have at present is very strong. We are interested in pursuing some of these reforms that you've just brought up in terms of better protecting indigenous ownership of intellectual property and protecting indigenous knowledge.

I know as well that there are concerns with current crown ownership under copyright law, but I think that, first and foremost, what students want to affirm for this committee is that the current system is working well, and we do think that this is a strong system for protecting students' access to knowledge and information.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you.

Is my time up? All right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

We'll move to Mr. Lloyd.

You have five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to start by saying I'm going to be splitting my time with my colleague.

I think I'm probably one of the few people on this committee—I can't speak for Matt—who's probably still paying off their student loans. That being said, with my recent experience graduating in 2014, one thing that was really useful to me when I went to university was the textbook tax credit that had been implemented by the previous government.

I'll just ask for a comment from the Canadian Federation of Students on the impact of losing the textbook tax credit in a recent budget.

[Charlotte Kiddell]

The Canadian Federation of Students advocates for a model of student assistance that is based on upfront needs-based grants rather than tax credits, because we find that tax credits that come after an education disproportionately benefit those who have the most money to spend on a post-secondary education and need that assistance the least.

However, I do understand that that's not what the committee is studying here today. Certainly, if you'd like to discuss some of our recommendations on increasing the accessibility of post-secondary education, I'd be happy to do that. I will say that fair dealing is absolutely a small but very important piece of increasing students' access to post-secondary education.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Absolutely. I just considered it because in this document that we received, textbook costs have such a significant impact on students, so as part of the market of supply and demand, any sort of thing helps in creating the demand for students if they can afford it.

My next question is more for Universities Canada, for Mr. Davidson.

What sort of future do you envision if copyright modernization goes the way that you're looking for? How do you see that compensating creators in that sort of environment?

[Paul Davidson]

When I made my preliminary remarks, I reaffirmed the value of the changes that were made in 2012 by the previous Parliament and by the subsequent court proceedings that have been interpreting that legislation, and we would encourage the committee to allow the courts to continue to do their work.

The key issue as you embark on this study is to find the appropriate balance. That is a hard one to find. I acknowledge that. I think universities, as both users and creators, have an appreciation for the challenge of that. As I was commenting in my remarks, universities are also centres of creative energy, of creative culture, of a dynamic cultural sector, and so we want to make sure that creators are appropriately compensated. We want to make sure that users are not paying more than once for works that they have rights to use. We want to make sure that students can exercise their rights to use works. We want to make sure that researchers have rights to use works to do their research. But it is a question of balance.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

You a minute and 45 seconds.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Go ahead.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you.

If anything, I'll just get it on the record that my wife is a physician, so I too am also paying fees—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

—proxy through her.

If we come back a little bit to the first line of questioning, Mr. Davidson, on the publicly funded research being made public, is it your opinion that it should also apply to all recipients of public funds, those within the private sector as well?