Evidence of meeting #102 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Susan Haigh  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Research Libraries
Carol Shepstone  Past Vice-Chair, Chief Librarian, Ryerson University, Canadian Research Knowledge Network
Laurent Dubois  General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)
Suzanne Aubry  President, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)
Mark Swartz  Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the points that has been brought up about the change in fair use in 2012 has been that it has improved education. You seem to think it has really helped the libraries and the students, and all of that. What are you doing today that you weren't doing in 2012?

Michael, I'll start with you.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

I will defer in part to my library compatriots. You have seen a major uptick in the number of copyright experts in post-secondary institutions who are making the assessments about these things. Across the university sector, copyright offices have assumed significant roles within those institutions. They are providing the kinds of instructional education both to faculty and to students that determine the parameters they can operate under. This was an understanding, especially on the part of institutions, that they needed to be able to explain what they actually were doing with this material. This is becoming a more important request for students in general. The challenge is that intellectual property, the whole gamut of it, is becoming so incredibly important for anybody's livelihood and for the production of that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Are you using more of it? If the law hadn't come in in 2012, you wouldn't be using something, and now you're taking access, which is helping improve your education. Is that happening because you have fair dealing there?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

I think you are in an environment where there is more comfort and ability to access sources, to quote from sources, to be able to use them to say that this is something you should be able to experience in context.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Then you are using more?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

I would say yes, but I'd also say that's a demonstration of the modern content-generating era, too. In the last five years, we have significantly more content that's being brought forward in every digital space.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

For the libraries, how has that change impacted your ability to operate?

4:20 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

While you point to the change made after the last review, it actually dates from earlier than that because the Supreme Court has been providing jurisprudence on the use of fair dealing since 2004. It just took a bit of time for universities to adapt to those changes.

For us in universities and university libraries, there are a variety of benefits to having a very a liberal fair-dealing exception. For one, it really helps instructors in the way they compile course materials. They can take materials from a variety of different places and compile them all together; they can use materials on the fly; and they can build a course that really works. As we mentioned, universities have been putting together a variety of systems to help instructors do that. That's a real way it has benefited us.

A liberal fair-dealing exception also benefits researchers in a variety of ways. They can use and reuse copyrighted material in their research. In addition, we use it in the library in a number of ways as well, and inter-library loans is one.

April 24th, 2018 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Since 2004, you've been on this trend, if you will, to be using it more. You've been getting from the courts the interpretation that allows you to have broader use. In 2012 it was put into law. That's what I understand. Are you going in that direction?

4:20 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

Fair dealing did exist beforehand. In 2004, it was the CCH and law society case, which was a very significant case that started helping to establish fair dealing as a user right in Canadian law. Then there have been a number of other court cases. There were a number in 2012 as well that helped establish that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

If I'm looking at the writers, and

I will get to them soon,

We're in Canada, and we're interested in helping Canadian industry and our Canadian writers. How much has been taken out of their pocket? You're a purchaser of data for all students from around the world. Do you have any idea of how much you're saving from Canadian content? For example, if the government—and I don't speak for the government—were we to say, “Here's an extra chunk of money that you can only use to buy Canadian content”, how much would you need to buffer up what you're taking, or what they perceive to be taken from them, without getting paid?

4:20 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

I can't speak for sectors other than the university sector, but for most of the courses that we process, most of the content that we're providing is scholarly content. A lot of it is from a variety of different places. The amount of Canadian content is fairly small, but it is still very significant. We get some of it through the licences from organizations like the Canadian Research Knowledge Network and others.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Would it be possible for you to go back and look to give us an idea? You don't need to answer right now, but for example, since 2004 we've used about 5%, and now it's down to 2%, or we used 5% and we paid for 5%, or now we're only paying for 1% due to fair dealings. Could we get an assessment or an idea from the universities only for Canadians?

4:25 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

Only Canadian content?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Yes, so we can try to get an idea of the impact of that. Could you provide that, please?

4:25 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

Yes, we can work on that.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you.

I now turn to you, Mr. Dubois and Ms. Aubry.

As far as I have understood, you find that the regulations in your operating environment are unclear. It is very difficult for you to know what kind of royalties you can expect. Is that correct?

You raised another point by saying that there were too many exceptions.

Did I understand the two points you raised correctly?

4:25 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

Mr. Baylis, you have understood our two points perfectly.

Thank you for the question you asked before that one. We have noted an increase in the use of content by educational institutions, but at the same time, since 2012, copyright collectives have lost $30 million in revenues.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

So the writers you represent have lost $30 million.

4:25 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

I am talking about copyright collectives that pay royalties to writers.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Is that the case only in Quebec or throughout Canada?

4:25 p.m.

President, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Suzanne Aubry

Throughout Canada.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

That involves writers, university publications. Who is that $30 million intended for?

4:25 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

Sorry, but I did not understand you very well.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

You said that $30 million in royalties has been lost. Who exactly has lost that $30 million?