Sylvia and David, can you give some input?
Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
As I keep saying, everyone jumped to thinking it was a 10% grab, and that's really why the college has opted out because that 10% is now free....
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
No, it's perceived by the educational institutes and if we narrow that down, I would suggest we return to the Berne Convention. I don't know, but I think they had three measures. One measure was, does it interfere with the creator's ability to be compensated? For example, my example of photocopying a whole book, of course it interferes. Or, if you may be photocopying 10% of an anthology, yes, but you are interfering because that creator....
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Is it fair to say that the perceived 10% guideline is only a perceived guideline?
5:10 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
Yes, it's only perceived, and it's in every one of their....
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Is it fair to say we don't have a well-defined process to be able to determine...?
5:15 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
Exactly, sir. We're determining it in the court of law.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
If you don't have a process how could you measure it and how could you bring oversight to it? Do you believe an oversight exists for any body that says this content was misused or it was replicated more than the number of times it needed to be?
5:15 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
I feel they have created guidelines and everyone is happy with it but we're not. You know they have decided that a certain percentage is open to them because of fair dealings.
5:15 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
Sylvia said that one poem wouldn't be acceptable for students. I think that one poem is a collection of poems. Say you have 100 poems in a collection and you can't share one poem with a student or one newspaper article for a student for their learning. Data shows that the creator sector has a very limited idea of what a fair dealing would be. I remember speaking at a communications conference in 2014 at Wilfrid Laurier. I asked the Access Copyright executive director what she felt was fair dealing. She said it was four pages per student per year. I feel this is not a useful guideline for students.
5:15 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
I feel there is fair dealing for education. Fair dealing for private study and research is pretty clear in Canadian law. I think the creator industry is not at all happy about the exception of fair dealing for education, and they would like it to go away. But I think we do....
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Sorry, we're way over time.
We're going to Mr. Jeneroux for five minutes, please.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Thank you.
I think we'll get into some of that in my questions. Let's go back to where both of you, Ms. McNicoll and Ms. Ludbrook, wanted to comment. I'll let you have the floor, Ms. McNicoll.
5:15 p.m.
Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
When I said one poem, again, let's go back to the nature of the photocopying. If you have a whole anthology of different poets and you take one poem and consistently photocopy it or download it or whatever you want or post, at worst, and use it consistently every year, obviously the nature of the reproduction is taking away from the income of that poet. I am not saying you can't take a page of my story or a page...it really depends on how you're using it. We would all love to have a really easy formula, but there isn't one. The exemption didn't even try to give a formula, so the colleges created their formulas. So did the K-to-12 sector, and here we are.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
I want to clarify. Going back, not to Mr. Jowhari's question, but more so on talking about Access Copyright and questions earlier on to Ms. Muller. Ms. Ludbrook, would you like to take a stab at that?
5:15 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
Could you say that again?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
It goes back to my questions to Ms. Muller about opting out of Access Copyright.
5:15 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
When I first came to Ryerson, I actually did a course pack study. What we found was that.... For instance, we have a database licence to the Toronto Star through seven different databases. We pay the Toronto Star directly every year, but we also pay for that content in seven different databases.
Everything is packaged for us. We buy it through ProQuest, the platform. I can give you a list. There's Canadian Newsstand, which is now global. Earlier, we purchased it through CPIQ, ProQuest Global Newsstream, Factiva, LexisNexis, and ProQuest CBCA. Some of them allow us to course-pack the content without paying for it. Some of them allow us to post the full text. We usually just link to material, but we have licences for that content.
What we were doing in the bookstore wasn't checking. We were just paying that licence to Access Copyright for that Toronto Star material that we'd already licensed. We started looking at what we were doing in terms of print course packs in a more careful way and started to think, okay, why does the content—
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
That was in 2011.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
That was prior to the act coming in when you started.
5:20 p.m.
Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University
Yes, and it partially came out of Access Copyright. It was $45 per student originally, and we started to ask if we were actually using that content. What I would say is that what we found in doing E-reserves is that we actually didn't use that much material. Most of what we use in E-reserves is electronic material that we have already licenced. That is what our students, especially at Ryerson.... We're very practical. We have an engineering school. We have a nursing school. We are not heavily into literary material. Most of what we put up in our E-reserve system is not literary. It's scholarly.