Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Harnum  Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
Hugo Setzer  Vice-President, Publishing, International Publishers Association
Rebecca Graham  Chief Information Officer and Chief Librarian, Chief Librarian's Office, University of Guelph
Susan Caron  Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library
Heather Martin  Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
Marian Hebb  Vice-Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
David Caron  President, Ontario Book Publishers Organization
Sylvia McNicoll  Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers
Joy Muller  Chair, Copyright Interest Group, Heads of Libraries and Learning Resources, Colleges Ontario
Ken Thompson  Chair, Artists and Lawyers for the Advancement of Creativity
Ann Ludbrook  Copyright and Scholarly Engagement Librarian, Ryerson University

3:15 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

Susan Caron

As I said, we do buy the majority of our e-books on a one-on-one basis. We buy between one copy and 350 copies of e-books depending on demand. The thing that OverDrive gives us is a platform and a place to store those e-books, and we have 400,000 e-books stored there. It allows us also to circulate those e-books, to place holds on them, so that all of the system management is within the OverDrive platform. We buy everything, select everything online, so that is what it gives us.

A few years ago, we were involved in an attempt with eBOUND and a number of libraries to create a Canadian-made platform for e-books, and we tried a number of things, but at the end of the day, it was incredibly expensive. It would have cost us far more to run the platform than it would have to purchase the material, so that was given up.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Okay.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

By way of finishing that question of why when you ordered the course packs, you said there was only one in use last year?

3:15 p.m.

Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph

Heather Martin

One in the summer term, and I think we had six this past winter term. The reason was that the content is available online now. We've purchased licences to access the content in those course packs. For instance, instead of putting together a course pack full of journal articles, we simply put direct links in our electronic reserve system and the students access them that way. Instead of copying chapters from books and compiling them in a course pack, we have e-books online.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

It's electronic.

3:20 p.m.

Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph

Heather Martin

Yes, we can link directly to them online. The payment happens when we purchase the content in the first place, and it also gives us the rights to use it in these ways.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thanks for clarifying that. It was very helpful.

Back to the Toronto Library and interlibrary exchanges, I'm thinking you must do them across Canada but also internationally. Do you, or no?

3:20 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

Susan Caron

Very occasionally we do them internationally. Occasionally we'll get a request from an American library or a U.K. library for something that is only available through Toronto.

In that case, and in many cases, the customer also pays for any costs involved in getting the book for them.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

That's what I figured.

I went to university in Michigan, so I'm familiar with some of the interlibrary exchanges and whatnot.

To Hugo, who was talking about—and it was touched on a little—fair dealing versus fair use. If you could contrast the two for us, what are some the advantages of fair dealings, and what are some of the contrasting deficiencies compared to fair use, if there are any?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

All in about 20 seconds, please.

3:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Publishing, International Publishers Association

Hugo Setzer

I'm not really familiar with any of those details, but as far as we understand, having such a broad educational exception does not comply with the specifics of the three-step test of the Berne Convention.

That's even being said by my American colleagues who use fair use. They have mentioned it's too broad; it's doesn't deal specifically enough with fair dealing.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

Now for our final questioner.

Mr. Masse, you have two minutes.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you.

I was looking at Overdrive myself. I was interested in the networking it does across other libraries.

How many copies...and does some cost-sharing take place? Maybe you can provide a little detail about that. I'm interested in the limitations, and now libraries are linking themselves together apparently.

3:20 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

Susan Caron

There are some consortiums, for example, the SOLS, the Southern Ontario Library Service, has a consortium. There are a number of consortiums in the States. I think the entire state of Ohio is a consortium.

In Toronto, we're just Toronto because we're privileged to have a very healthy budget. We have $90 million a year to spend on material, so we are able to spend a lot of money on e-books and audiobooks. We don't take part in a consortium because, given the draw from our population in Toronto, it would not work well for us to be part of a consortium. We need to limit the materials to the customers of the Toronto Public Library.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay, that's what I was looking at too. I'm from Windsor, and they're part of that consortium.

3:20 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I thought that was interesting.

I'm curious as to whether it is still limited in how many...I guess those whole areas can have maybe 10 e-books out at once. Is the virtual world in that lending the same as the physical world?

3:20 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

Susan Caron

It is, and that is very difficult for our customers to understand. They know we're buying a licence for a digital file, and yet it acts as if it were a print book. There's one copy per user, so you put a hold on one copy of the file. For example, we have to buy 300 copies of Bellevue Square by Michael Redhill because that's the demand. It's just like a book. There are 300 of them, you put a hold, and you have to wait until those 300 are used up. It's not concurrent users.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

The interesting thing I think a lot of people look at, Mr. Chair—and I don't want to run out of time—is I'm willing to bet the unlimited access...and the issue is whether or not the creator's being rewarded for the multiple copies out there.

I'm willing to bet that the management between the creator and the user is where the real money's at. It seems we're consistently getting testimony that there's more money, but there's consistently less going back to creators, and I can tell you—I have a daughter who's going into university now—that student debt and student tuition have not gone down either.

3:25 p.m.

Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library

Susan Caron

With Bellevue Square for example, which is obviously Canadian, we bought 280 e-books and 339 print books. Ten years ago we would have only bought the print books, so now we're practically doubling the number of books by Michael Redhill that we're buying.

How much Michael Redhill ended up with at the end of the day, I don't know.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

That's a good question. It'll have to wait for another time.

Unfortunately, we are out of time.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming down.

As you can see, there were a lot of hard questions and a lot of great answers. We certainly have a lot of work ahead of us.

Thank you again for coming.

We will be suspending until four o'clock when we begin our second panel.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Welcome back, everybody, for our second hour of copyright discussions.

Today we have with us, from the Ontario Book Publishers Organization, David Caron, president. We have, from the Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers, Sylvia McNicoll, author. From Colleges Ontario, we have Joy Muller, chair, copyright interest group, heads of libraries and learning resources. From Artists and Lawyers for the Advancement of Creativity, we have Ken Thompson. Finally, from Ryerson University we have Ann Ludbrook, copyright and scholarly engagement librarian. That's an interesting title you have there.

We're going to start off, and you're going to have up to seven minutes. After everybody presents, we'll do our round of questioning, going back and forth. We'll have a good panel.

We're going to start off with Mr. Caron from the Ontario Book Publishers Organization. You have up to seven minutes.

4 p.m.

David Caron President, Ontario Book Publishers Organization

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for having us.

My name is David Caron. I am the president of the Ontario Book Publishers Organization. I'm also president and co-publisher at ECW Press here in Toronto.

Also here is Holly Kent, executive director of the OBPO.

We represent more than 40 Ontario-based, Canadian-owned book publishers, companies that provide the risk capital and the creative partnerships to publish and print audio and digital for hundreds of Canadian authors every year in all genres to readers around the world.

Copyright is at the heart of our businesses and at the heart of our relationships with our authors, and those have been damaged by the Copyright Modernization Act. You've heard in general the kind of effect the act has had. I want to tell you some specific stories about publishers in Ontario.

I have a publisher from southwestern Ontario who has seen a loss of $50,000 per year in revenue and has been forced to develop scholarly books for the American market in order to survive as a business.

I have a publisher in Toronto who saw a loss of $90,000 per year and whose author walked into a classroom where they were studying her Governor General's award-winning novel, but all the copies were photocopied without compensation.

I have a university-based publisher who has seen a drop of $65,000 per year in revenue because the institutions it works with believed that one library copy equals unlimited course use.

I have a literary publisher who has lost $39,000 per year in sales, a sizable chunk of its annual revenue; a legal publisher who is now missing $55,000 of its sales; and a children's publisher who has seen a decrease of $195,000 per year.

In our own case at ECW, I can tell you that we've lost $102,000 per year in educational course adoption revenue on average versus our loss last year, which was $28,000. In other words, that revenue made the difference between being in the red and our profitability.

There are similar stories across our membership, and I don't want to go into all of them, but you get the picture.

It's not just the fact that the direct revenue through Access Copyright from educational institutions has dropped by almost 90%; it's that the private companies that service those institutions, specifically companies that offer digital content subscriptions and that used to carry our material, have now stopped paying for that content. A significant portion of our revenue, half of it in the case of our company, would have been paid out to our authors, so not only do we lose, but our authors lose as well.

A study by PricewaterhouseCoopers concludes that $30 million in licensing revenue alone has been lost, not to mention additional losses from book purchases, because educational institutions opt for free copying rather than buying books.

The Writers' Union of Canada reported that 80% of authors' revenue from educational use has disappeared.

As a publisher, if I use an author's work in another book, I can only use the minimum that I need in order to discuss that writing. Even then, I cannot use an amount that would affect the commercial value of that writing. I cannot affect the revenue of the original book. That is fair dealing for us. Yet clearly from our examples, the educational copying without compensation has affected the revenue of copyright holders.

The facts of unclear copying have been tested in the Federal Court through the York University case and have come before the Copyright Board. The interpretation of the Copyright Modernization Act by Canada's schools, colleges, and universities has created a perception of free access that goes beyond those legal limits and has created significant damage for Ontario publishers and the authors with whom they partner.

We ask that you clarify fair dealing for education and end unfair copying; promote a return to collective licensing in the education sector—there exists a reasonable means to negotiate a fair price between institutions and the creative sector—increase statutory damages to discourage systemic infringement; and ensure that we meet our international treaty obligations.

As Ontario publishers, we are ready to look at systems that provide copyrighted materials in digital, audio, and print media searchable by educators. The OBPO is involved even now in an online project to make it much easier for educators to access learning resources for our books. Fair payment for the intellectual property used in our classrooms is not only right and relatively cheap—as you've heard, it costs only a few dollars—it also invests in our future as a nation.

Our copyright-reliant professionals and industry should be growing. They should not be shrinking. They should be contributing to our nation, not looking to produce outside our borders. Students should be seeing that they could make a living in the creative and copyright-reliant professions, not that such pursuits are deemed worthless.

Thank you. I welcome your questions.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move right to Sylvia McNicoll.

You have up to seven minutes.

May 9th, 2018 / 4:05 p.m.

Sylvia McNicoll Author, Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers

Thank you, everybody.

My name is Sylvia McNicoll, as you know. I'm here to represent the Canadian Society of Children's Authors, Illustrators and Performers, better known as CANSCAIP, because writers and illustrators for children are probably the most affected by the fair dealings educational exemption, especially in the K-to-12 sector, although I know my material is taught in colleges as well.

We wish to have the educational exemption stricken totally from the Copyright Act. I've been writing for approximately 30 years, and I've served as CANSCAIP's president and in various other executive positions. My first book was published in 1989, and it was chosen as a novel study for schools in Atlantic Canada. I think, actually, it was just Newfoundland, which meant an instant sale of 2,000 books that bumped it into a Canadian best-seller.

Since then, many of my novels, including that lucky first one, have been published internationally in Scandinavia, England, Australia, and most recently, Korea and Colombia.

My colleagues consider me a successful, hard-working writer. Like most mid-list novelists, I try to cobble a living together through a stew of projects: writing books and articles, teaching, speaking, grants, public lending rights, and Access Copyright payback.

When that early novel-study sale occurred, a classroom set of novels would typically include 30 books. As the years went by, that number dropped down to five because of different philosophies of education, cost-cutting, and then in the latter years, yes, photocopying—that was earlier even—and downloading.

A few years ago, I visited a correctional facility for young adults in northern Ontario where one of my novels was entirely photocopied for the students without my permission. This was ironic because it was the grade 9 students who were incarcerated for breaking the law. This is what well-meaning, hard-working, law-abiding teachers do when the author is present to witness it.

But we did have Access Copyright licences that were respected in those days. I would receive some compensation for minimal copying. Licensing fees tend to act like speed limits on the 401. If the speed limit is 100 kilometres, most people drive at least five to 10 kilometres over, and maybe 20 when they're late.

While the fees were intended to compensate us for a few pages of copying and downloading here and there, mostly for the purposes of research for a project for an individual student, we knew that schools were copying well over the 100-kilometre speed limit.

Enter Bill C-11, educational exemption. In 2012, the fateful year before it took real effect, I earned approximately $46,000. Of that total, $2,578.68 was Access Copyright licensing fees, which paid for two months of mortgage and three weeks of groceries. That's important to a children's writer.

Schools, universities, and colleges decided that because of the educational exemption, 10% of copying now was entirely free. They decided that Access Copyright licensing was unnecessary. They also decided that copyright tariffs were optional, and they opted out. They are still photocopying and downloading well above that speed limit too.

My grandson recently brought home a photocopied story in a Duo-Tang folder. It was a Canadian-authored retelling of an indigenous tale, and it was Canadian illustrated, Canadian published, and Canadian edited. The photocopied story was 100% complete.

Let's be generous and say that it was 10% of an anthology. Who knows? The well-intentioned teacher—and they are; they're hard-working, and they just want to have their curriculum met—uses a photocopy of that folk tale year after year, instead of buying a text.

It is not her fault that her school board thinks a 10% grab of an anthology is fine because of the fair-dealing exemption. This photocopying of course negatively impacts the publishing industry and the cultural workers involved. Our Bachelor of Arts kids lose potential jobs, and they are good jobs.

I've just finished preparing my income tax for 2017. My income is down 90%, to $12,000. My Access Copyright cheque is, coincidentally, also down by about 90%, to less than $400. That's down from two mortgage payments and three weeks of grocery payments to one week of grocery money—groceries have also gone up.

Also, boards of education now are suing for part of my 2012 cheque back. Bill C-11's fair-dealing exemption alone is not responsible for my income decline, but fair dealing is a beacon of disrespect for content. The world watches as Canadian schools download and copy curated content in a government-sanctioned theft of 10%. You have turned the Highway 401 speed limit in reproduction of materials into the autobahn—no speed limit at all.

Last year, I had two Canadian best-selling mysteries for middle-grade kids published, and probably almost three—they straddled the year. I worked even harder in 2012, because of course authors are expected to do more promotion, social media, etc., but I give up: not on writing or presenting to kids—that is my passion, my identity—but I'm trying to make a living. It's impossible. I must tell my students the same. I am drawing my pension and cashing in my registered retirement funds. After that, I will sell my house.

What does that mean for future writers and cultural workers? Your job must become a hobby. You do it on your lunch break.

Can Canadian publishers survive that way? We are already seeing their demise. What we create needs to—must—appear in the schools to represent Canadian values. Make no mistake about that.

What we create provides excellent jobs. What we create deserves respect, and what we create deserves compensation. You need to fix fair dealing by removing the educational exemption. Otherwise, we will have no Canadian culture.

Thank you.