Evidence of meeting #117 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was material.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

H. Mark Ramsankar  President, Canadian Teachers' Federation
Cynthia Andrew  Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association
Dru Marshall  Provost and Vice-President, University of Calgary

4 p.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Okay.

Cynthia.

4 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

I would agree. We don't believe there is a need to change the application of fair dealing as it currently exists in the Copyright Act or the interpretation that was put forward by the Supreme Court of Canada in its ruling.

With respect to the issue of acquiring materials, I think it's important to note that school boards are very much aware when they acquire materials, particularly digital materials, as to whether or not those materials include rights to reproduce. One thing that has been debated at meetings quite extensively is that when you're looking at costs of materials, if you think those costs are high, then look at whether or not they include reproduction rights. If they do, there is a very good reason why that cost might be higher than another resource that does not include reproduction rights, even though the content of the two resources may be similar.

Boards are very much aware of those two issues and the distinction between them, and they make choices about what materials they'll be choosing accordingly.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC

Ms. Marshall, can you tell us what the University of Calgary is paying in copyright costs?

4 p.m.

Provost and Vice-President, University of Calgary

Dru Marshall

The copyright costs for the university have varied. When we started in 2011, before the proposed tariff, we were paying $2.38 a student with 10¢ a copy. It varied between $10 and $15, I think, when all was said and done at the end of a year, per FTE student. We have about 30,000 FTE students on our campus, so that gives you an idea.

We opted out in part because to go from $10 to $15 to $26 or $45 per FTE seemed like a very large jump. We have to manage a number of competing stories all the time at institutions. We are publicly funded. We look very carefully at the use of taxpayer dollars. Our institution has not passed on the costs of copyright to students, believing that this is part of what we do as an institution.

For us, in terms of the issues in copyright and fair dealing, we did not opt out until the Supreme Court of Canada's decision on fair dealing. We thought this was an absolutely critical part for Canadian society. It's very important for universities to be able to share information and to build on information. The idea that you can use part of the information available to take and build on it, to create different research, is a very important part of what we do at the university in both research and teaching.

I would strongly support the fair dealing concepts as they currently exist.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Cannings.

Welcome to our committee. You have up to seven minutes.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you can gather, I'm not usually on this committee, so I haven't heard the testimony leading up to this. I do have a bit of a background from both sides. I worked at UBC for many years, and I have written a dozen or so books. I get my Access Copyright cheque every year. It's not a lot, but it's a nice surprise. It has been getting a lot smaller lately. I see that. I also have quite a number of authors living in my riding who have talked to me about this issue. A lot of them write fairly regional books on history and natural history that are used in schools. These people don't make a lot of money from their writing, so that Access Copyright cheque was actually a good chunk of their annual income. For me, it didn't really matter that much. I see the fairness issues on both sides.

Ms. Andrew, you mentioned that Access Copyright hadn't been able to show undue economic hardship on authors. I think that's what you were trying to say. I'm wondering what the economic hardship is on schools, colleges, and universities. We have statements here in the notes. For instance, Winnipeg School Division spends $34,000 a year on copyright materials, $1 per student. Ms. Marshall was talking about something a little bit higher.

I'm just wondering what you think would be fair and not causing hardship to school boards.

4:05 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

I'm going to backtrack just a bit and clarify my comments about Access Copyright. What I was saying is that they haven't been able to convince with evidence in courts that it is the case. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that they've come forward with, and stories that they've told, and I know from my own experience that what you said about Access Copyright cheques going down is happening. What I'm trying to say is that they haven't been able to demonstrate in a court of law that the evidence exists—to date.

What I would also like to say is that with respect to how school boards quantify what they spend on—quote, unquote—copyright, those costs go beyond what they would spend on a tariff, because reproduction rights are built into many of the resources they are currently purchasing, which is similar to what you were saying about paying for something twice. With respect to what a school board views as fair, we view the fair dealing guidelines as the most fair way to apply copyright to educational use of works.

With respect to authors who have regional interests in their works, I know that in Manitoba and the Atlantic provinces there are arrangements that the provincial departments of education—I'm sure this may happen in other provinces, but these are two that I'm aware of—have made with local authors to license their material separately and to provide some sort of subsidy or grant so that those materials can be used in the schools outside of their relationship with Access Copyright. This is something that a lot of provincial governments are looking at, particularly where resources have a specific interest for a local region.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

I'll move to you, Mr. Ramsankar, and ask about the movement from print to digital and online resources that you were talking about. Perhaps all of you mentioned that.

Could you expand on that? What's the proportion of online versus print material used in classrooms, if you know, and how might this affect authors or producers of that material? How is that factored into your purchases? Are teachers going online and looking for free material specifically because it's free?

4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Teachers' Federation

H. Mark Ramsankar

I don't have at my fingertips the exact figure for the percentage of online versus print material in terms of the uses in classrooms, but I would suggest that teachers are subject to their own personal purchasing power—that of the school. For example, teachers don't purchase textbooks on an individual basis. They would be purchasing individual materials to use for either developing a curriculum or building a unit for their students. Depending on the complexity of the classroom, they may require different types of access to material. The concern that teachers are looking at right now is what they are subject to in terms of the use of material that is purchased and that they've already brought into their classroom to augment the curriculum development.

What we're talking about right now through fair dealing is that it allows excerpts to be used by teachers. On the notion, for example, that whole textbooks are being printed, I can say for a fact that in terms of the budgets in a school or a teacher's individual purchasing power to be able to photocopy, that's unheard of. In fact, many teachers across the country are subject to specific accounts that limit the amount of photocopying they're allowed to do. Necessarily, when you're talking about your own developed material and the materials you would be using in your classroom, going out and printing something that has copyright applied to it is wasteful, and it's not used in that sense.

As digital material is brought into the classroom, it's cited so that students are aware of it when they are using it in their own research. Teachers do talk to students about the development of copyright citing and about giving credit for material and thoughts that are not their own. That's generally the use in K-to-12 classrooms.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Ms. Ng.

You have seven minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you so much.

Thank you, everyone, for coming in to speak to us on this important study.

I'm going to start with the Teachers' Federation and pick up on what Mr. Cannings was talking about.

I think you already touched on this, but I'd like you to talk to us about a set of policies that exists for teachers regarding compliance with fair dealing. We certainly have heard from publishers and authors about an excess use by teachers. I know you have a booklet, and I think the booklet is out there for all of your teachers. Just expand on that a little bit, and maybe the School Boards Association could talk to us about that, as well, to help clarify our understanding of the policy and the rules that teachers actually work within to comply with fair dealing.

4:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Teachers' Federation

H. Mark Ramsankar

We went to work right after the Supreme Court ruling, and that was the production here, with our education partners. There were, during that time, professional development opportunities in the different provinces, put on by our member organizations, to speak directly to copyright. The article that I cited just recently is from March-April, 2018. There's still an article talking about fair dealing and copyright. It's alive and well with our professionals as they're coming in and. As our population or the demographics in teaching turn over, we are continually vigilant to make sure that teachers understand that what they're doing in using copyrighted material falls within the latest definition of compliance.

In answer to the question of how we continue to do it, the rules are laid out. Most of the evidence I've heard about teachers going outside of compliance rules is anecdotal, and I would consider those cases very much one-offs. I don't say that tongue in cheek. Individuals who take opportunities to go outside of use are usually cited. Either the principal or the board itself will make note of that. The teachers are made aware of it, and material is either withdrawn or taken back. But these are very much one-offs, and I can't emphasize that enough. This is not a mass happening across the country.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

To the School Boards Association, what kinds of policies or rules are in place to help guide compliance in the schools?

4:15 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

I'm going to split your question in two.

There's the education aspect, what we do to educate our staff, and Mark has spoken very eloquently about it. It happens at multiple levels. We all use consistent materials. You'll see that we have the same book. We use the same fair dealing guidelines. There are posters produced by provincial governments through their involvement in the CMEC Copyright Consortium, which go out to every school. Every year in September, this material is redistributed through the provincial associations or provincial departments down to the boards and through the boards to the schools. This happens on an annual basis. All the materials are shared on a regular basis, and then they're also shared through other means, such as their unions or education articles and things like that. There are lots of opportunities for this information to get shared with school board staff, not just teaching staff but all staff.

On the side of compliance, it is a school board's responsibility to ensure that its staff are following all of their policies. School boards have a number of policies. Any non-compliance with copyright that is identified would be dealt with through the process a school board follows depending on which province it's in. It's going to vary from province to province, and may even vary board to board, in terms of which process it follows to communicate with the teacher about what they've done wrong. Frequently, when things are brought to a board's attention about non-compliance, it's more a matter of, “I just didn't know that” than it is a matter of, “I didn't care.” It's a matter of ensuring that the person is educated about what they're supposed to do, and then, very rarely...in fact, I've yet to be made aware of a situation in which there has been a recurrence of non-compliance. From that perspective, I think that school boards are doing their due diligence as employers to ensure that their employees are following all of their policies and that laws are outlined in that.

May 24th, 2018 / 4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you both. We certainly heard from everyone, I think, that they want to ensure that the works of creators are respected and that compensation for them is fair and so forth, while at the same time, as I said earlier, we heard from publishers and authors who clearly indicated an impact.

Just for our understanding, can you talk to us, from a school board perspective, about spending? Did you at one time, like the universities and other post-secondary institutions, pay the tariff and now, just because teaching methods have changed and materials are available in many different formats, rather than going through the tariff method of paying for the material, have you gone through the transition to paying for transactional licences?

Has your spending changed? What was it before and what is it now?

4:20 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

I would suggest that our spending hasn't changed. The tariff amount that we pay—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Do you have data on that at all? Do the school boards—

4:20 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

We don't nationally. Education is a provincial jurisdiction, so it's very difficult to get national information on how spending occurs. It's actually difficult to get it even at a provincial level because not all provinces have the same budgeting structure. What might count as learning resources in one province doesn't count as learning resources in another, and that sort of thing.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I think I'm almost out of time. Could you try to get at that?

4:20 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

All right.

Now I've completely lost track of my mind.

With respect to spending, I would suggest it hasn't changed, but what's changed is what we're buying. We're buying more of the digital-based resources and a greater variety of materials.

What was the other half of the question?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

That's it. I think I'm out of time.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

That's good. That's all you have time for.

Mr. Lloyd, you have five minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate everyone coming and the testimony today.

Ms. Andrew, kind of related to the previous question, what are the current costs overall for copyright for your stakeholders, and can you break that down on a per student cost on average across Canada?

4:20 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian School Boards Association

Cynthia Andrew

I can't and I wish I could, because I would love to be able to answer that question. I think that it would serve me well to be able to answer that question.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

In the evidence we have been provided, the Winnipeg School Division told us they pay about $1 per student. So for 34,000 students, they said the cost is about $34,000. The information that was provided to us by Access Copyright says that the tariff has been set at $2.41 per student per K-12 student. However, the majority of schools outside of Quebec are no longer paying any tariffs, and so the cost would be zero dollars for collective licences.

Would you say that's correct?