Industry Committee on June 5th, 2018

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Do you want statutory damages against the site, or against the ISP provider?

[Margaret McGuffin]

That's against the site but with the ISP as part of the liability.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Yes, but let's say I'm an ISP provider and I really want to play along because I have to deal with people. I want to play along and I have the same issue you have, whack-a-mole. You give me a notice, I take him down, and he shows up somewhere else. Then you give me a notice and I take him down. Do you want to sue me, the ISP? Do you want me to give you monetary damages?

[Margaret McGuffin]

We want you to take responsibility when you know that activity is happening on your services.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That is the take down.

[Margaret McGuffin]

There is also an ability.... Some of these services are actually active in putting the music up there and are encouraging users to put the music up there, and we want them to take responsibility.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We'll put it aside then. I'd like to understand something totally different.

Mr. Willaert, you talked about sound recordings specifically as a tie-in to TV programs and movies. Could you contrast what the Canadian law is versus the U.S. law?

[Alan Willaert]

Yes. The U.S. has ratified the Beijing treaty, so that music that is synced to television or movies has a royalty or tariff attached to it.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

If that music is being used on a TV show or on a movie....

[Alan Willaert]

Right, and since Canada has not ratified the Beijing treaty there is no protection for audiovisual content.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You would like us to ratify the Beijing treaty, which would in turn provide the protection for that audiovisual content as it ties in to music, right?

[Alan Willaert]

That's correct, yes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Lefbvre, do you have anything to add to that?

[Éric Lefebvre]

Yes. The Beijing Treaty is very important because it creates rights, much like the 1996 WIPO Treaty for sound recordings. The Beijing Treaty also covers audiovisual productions.

The fact that Canada has not ratified this treaty does actually mean that we are sort of lagging behind.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Have we signed it anyway? We always sign treaties, even if we do not always ratify them.

[Éric Lefebvre]

I am not aware of the latest news, but I understand that, unlike the negotiation of the WIPO Treaty, Canada did not actively participate in the negotiation of the Beijing Treaty, which I think Mr. Willaert could perhaps confirm since he attended the discussions that took place in Beijing.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Basically, we haven't ratified it, and you'd like us to do that.

[Éric Lefebvre]

Ultimately, performers must have rights equivalent to those currently in place for sound recordings, but those rights must also apply to audiovisual productions.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Ms. Sansoucy, you have seven minutes.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you very much.

Just now, the chair pointed out that this was my first time on this committee. So I will dive right in. Earlier, my colleague was talking about basic issues to help us understand a sector in which you are experts.

So I would like to know whether copyright owners have different interests based on their style of music. For example, are there differences between the interests of a performer or producer of classical music and those of artists or producers of popular music? If so, is that something we should consider? How does it work? Regardless of the productions or performances, is it the same from one style to another?

The answer may be obvious to you, but it’s not obvious to us.

[Éric Lefebvre]

Clearly, there are slightly different structures. Take classical music and a symphony orchestra, for example. There are 100 musicians led by a conductor, perhaps in addition to a guest soloist, such as a violinist, who will play a concerto accompanied by the orchestra. A phonogram, a sound recording, will be produced.

Let's take a second example, that of Céline Dion and her five musicians—she might have more, but I'm giving an example—who also record a phonogram. Of course we are talking about popular music here.

Is there a difference between the two? The soloist will probably sign a contract with a producer, as will the pop star. Musicians are bound by similar agreements. The difference is that classical music involves a larger number of musicians, because they usually belong to ensembles. Since there are more musicians, the royalties they will receive may be lower than those paid to an ensemble of only five musicians.

In addition to those differences, performers can find themselves in quite diverse situations. I know a musician who can play one day with the symphony orchestra, can do jazz the next day and accompany a popular artist the day after that. The same musician will therefore play with a number of artists of different styles.

Contractual practices may differ from one sector to another. In classical music, collective agreements generally govern the working conditions between an orchestra and a producer. Popular music deals with individual contracts to manage the relations between a producer and an artist.

In terms of the Copyright Act, I wouldn't be able to tell you whether there are big differences depending on the style of music.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Let me go back to something you said earlier. We have talked a lot about streaming services, and you said that 30% of those services were illegal.

[Éric Lefebvre]

What I said is that, according to the survey, 30% of Internet users, at least once in the three months before the survey—

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

So, 30% of Internet users. Okay.