Evidence of meeting #131 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
In many cases, there are certain styles that are taught, and someone will say that's been incorporated by someone else. The question is, “Where does it end?”
4:05 p.m.
Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
We sometimes need to look at what we operate. I'm sure people in the dance movement would say that various artists at various times inspired them, but their work is new, and many other people would say you're just adding your own flourishes to it. I see that as a very dangerous slope—
4:05 p.m.
Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
—because again, it's the human body. It's art in the moment, and I don't think anyone should be able to say that movement is mine, or that series of movements is mine, because that's basically martial arts, to a large extent.
We've heard some testimony that groups of artists would like extensions of copyright for works used in films and movies. Sound recordings that are used in those properties have repeat broadcasts and require repeat royalties. That's what some people have said.
Right now, for sound recordings, they're paid once for the actual work, and then, if it's rebroadcast in a movie theatre or streamed on a platform, that's separate.
A representative of the Movie Theatre Association, who was opposed to that, warned this could extend to dance performances, as well. He said that, currently, a producer pays a fee up front, and the choreographer is not permitted to exercise remuneration when the work is incorporated into a film. In essence, once the creators sell that work for a film, they're not entitled to more royalties later.
Would your association support changes to the law to require royalties to be paid to choreographers when that work is broadcast?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
Yes, but I would really like to hear Patrick's and Elizabeth's opinion on this, because this is certainly not my area of expertise.
4:05 p.m.
General Delegate for Canada, Société des auteurs et compositeurs dramatiques
For us at the SCAD, it is very simple: every form in which a work is used is subject to a payment for copyright. It matters little whether it is used once, twice or three times. Copyright must be paid for each time.
Take the example of a film that is first shown in theatres. As soon as it is subsequently shown on television, the author must be paid. Then, as soon as it is made available to the users of a digital platform, it is our position that the author should receive a royalty payment once more.
That is how we see things. Since I have an author with me, you can ask him and see what his answer is.
4:05 p.m.
Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
Does any other jurisdiction offer that? I'm concerned about the complexity of tracking that, and also that it may push away a lot of legitimate activity that is being filmed here in Canada where you have artists, dancers, composers and sound producers who are compensated for that work.
However, if directors and producers feel there is going to be an ongoing, what they would consider a liability—and I do recognize many of you represent that as work that you've done—that's not how the current act reads, and that's not how the practice is in the community. People are remunerated for the original work not for the rebroadcasted work.
Is that something we're looking at here, as well? To me, that's where the complexity comes in. When things get too complex, oftentimes people make business decisions that aren't good for the ecosystem long term.
4:10 p.m.
Patrick Lowe Scriptwriter and Member, Authors' Committee, Société des auteurs et compositeurs dramatiques
There's no problem in Quebec with respect to all the rights paid by the channel.
It works in Quebec, whoever is showing a work. We have contracts in which it is set out. Our rights are reserved. SACD is healthy and is very good at negotiating very good deals with the owners of TV networks. Everyone agrees with the system, which is why the system works.
4:10 p.m.
Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
I guess that works in that specific case.
However, what we've heard from many witnesses is that in their space, where they're operating outside of Quebec, in some cases they may write into the contract between the company and the person who is producing the work, whether it be a choreographer or a sound producer, for them to be paid.
Again, we're talking about the status quo right across the country. That's why I'm asking that, if we make it mandatory every time something is streamed on a platform like Netflix or CraveTV, there is going to be an extra cost, that may make a decision for future work to not be done in Canada. Those are questions that I have as well, because then we don't have an ecosystem where people can find work.
I appreciate that there seems to be a different way of doing it in Quebec, but we're talking about right now, right across the country.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
I'm sorry. We are quite over time. We can come back to that.
We're going to move to Mr. Masse.
You have seven minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Playwrights Guild of Canada
I was going to add that at Playwrights Guild of Canada, in terms of ensuring access, we're being proactive in terms of our work being done on a digital platform. What's happening now is that a lot of playwrights are having their work filmed to make it more accessible beyond the stage. We went ahead and talked to a lot of agents and different organizations on an international scale, to have that conversation to ensure that when a play is filmed and it's distributed in a different way that the playwrights continue to be paid.
I think we all need to work together a little better to ensure that we're putting the tools in place to ensure we can make the work accessible. I think it has more to do with ensuring that the copyright can be obtained, the licences can be obtained, and not necessarily the cost of it.
Thank you.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I play Fortnite, so I'm familiar with emotes, on that and other games. It's an interesting thing that's emerged.
If you're not familiar with emotes, they usually take two to five seconds, depending upon which game you're playing. However, they're not usually germane to the game. They're part of an expression component, which people use to play online among themselves, often in standby rooms or in waiting period times before the game; or, it's activity to express yourself during the gameplay. It's not only Fortnite there are hundreds of games that have emotes.
The question that I have is, where is the line drawn for any of these things? They are purchasable, but often it's game credits. With some of those game credits—and we ran into a problem to some degree and it was cleaned up by Battlefront—it almost became like a lottery. It was criticized for loot boxes, and other things like that, when you purchase upgrades for weaponry, for costumes, for emotes.
Some of the emotes are dance moves, and others are expressions or talking. There are phrases that are very common in pop culture, whether they be from movies or other types of things that have become generally acceptable in terms of use.
Do you have any idea as to where the line would be drawn on that and how the compensation would take place? Again, you don't have to spend money to get emotes. You can play the game and you get online credit currencies for that.
How would you compensate for that? If it is a three- to five-second thing that's also done in the social context of using the game—not the gameplay itself—how do you restrict that? In a virtual world, in these rooms and elements where the emotes are used most prolifically, it's the same as if we were in the room here and you did a thumbs-up.
There are everything from dance moves that go back to cultural expressions, whether it be Slavic or Russian and other types of eastern European kicking out your feet type of things, to skateboarding things that came about in the heyday of Tony Hawk and the types of moves they did with regard to the emergence of that culture.
How do you quantify these, and would you distinguish the difference between using them, again in a virtual setting, before the game, which is when you're communicating and you're part of that culture where you know that all your expressions are monitored and shared? That would be no different from the real world.
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
To my knowledge, no jurisdiction is currently offering royalties on these movements, these emotes that are happening in video games. The point I was trying to make is that the definition of choreographic work needs to be a little more flexible and not so much focused on narrative ballet in the Copyright Act, so that five or 10 or 50 years from now, there is the potential to have this conversation when Drake creates a phenomenal dance sensation and suddenly copyrights it and then we go down this slippery slope.
We're not there yet.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I don't know how I would think about it, but there are ones like the rocket rodeo, where the guy is riding a rocket. It reminds me of an older movie from the 1950s or 1960s, where the actor gets on the nuclear bomb and rides it. Somebody might remember it.
That's what we're talking about. For me, the emotes triggered the memory of that movie. At the same time, how do you quantify that emote, if it is recognizable? That might lead to the musician or the choreographer or the artist who did it, and that might lead to the purchasing of their song or their dance or whatever.
How do you square that process? I'm just curious. What's the thought from the industry itself?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
When Beyoncé liberally borrowed from De Keersmaeker, the industry celebrated. There was a lot of attention on esoteric contemporary dance, more interest and probably exactly what you said; more tickets purchased and more focus on that artist.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
It really is new. I think in the video game industry, there's a bigger.... Once again, these packages are part of Loot Crate, part of a social identity that you create online. It's everything from the weapons you use, to the clothes you wear, to the expressions you have.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
I have a strange urge to go out and play a game now. I feel I'm being left out.
We're going to move to Mr. Longfield. You have seven minutes, please.
October 15th, 2018 / 4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thanks for all the presentations today.
Ms. Cornell, the Guelph Dance Festival just had their 20th year. It's part of the Fab 5 festivals in Guelph where we celebrate different arts and cultures.
I think of the small festivals like that and the performers within those festivals; how would they normally go about copyrighting what they've created and what they're putting on public display? Is it through doing a video of themselves? What's the mechanism for protecting their works?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
There isn't much currently, to be honest. I absolutely adore the Guelph contemporary dance festival. I lived in Guelph for a couple of years so I'm really glad you brought it up.
A contemporary dance artist, choreographer or company would go into a contract with the festival, for example, to present the work. If the work becomes a success—and in Canadian dance that means we get to see maybe five shows in two different cities, we're really talking about small scale here—that means that everything is decided on a contract basis with that presenter. If another presenter wants to purchase it and, let's say, it's going to be performed by different dancers in maybe a slightly different context, there is a very small chance that a royalty could be paid, but really we're only seeing royalties being paid 99% of the time in ballet.
That example in contemporary dance doesn't happen very much.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
You might have just answered my follow-up question, which is indigenous dance, and whether indigenous people are able to protect what they've had for centuries.
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
To my knowledge, and I am certainly not an expert in indigenous dance, that is more of a verbal passing on of the legacy of the dance—