Evidence of meeting #132 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arr.
A video is available from Parliament.
President, Regroupement des artistes en arts visuels du Québec
In my view, a person who owns a collection of works of art will want to sell it at a serious location that has a name and that will promote the collection. A real collector wouldn't simply sell their collection on the Internet. None of the collectors who purchase my works would agree to sell their collection on the Internet simply to avoid the 5% requested by the artists.
We support artists in Canada or we don't support them. That's the real question. We're Canadian or we aren't.
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
Put it this way. Collectors aren't thrilled about paying 15% HST in the Maritimes or 13% in Ontario. If there is a way for them to avoid it and the seller is automatically in a position whereby he or she can save 5%, they will find a way.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
We are way overtime, but do you want to quickly add something to that? You looked as though you were itching to jump in.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
I just can't imagine ever seeing an Emily Carr painting for sale on Kijiji; it's just not going to happen. You're not going to get those prices.
As far as who pays is concerned, we recommend that it be split between the seller and the auction house or the dealer. We're open to negotiating those terms. If it's fully onto the seller, that's fine, if you think that would make it easier.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
We are going to move on to Mr. Sheehan. You have five minutes.
October 17th, 2018 / 4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you very much. It's a great discussion.
Just very quickly, I taught a bit at our local Sault College in entrepreneurship. Most programs had a requirement to take entrepreneurship, and part of it involved the fine arts students who used to take it.
I am reminded of a story from when I used to section them off, just the fine arts students. A young first nations man asked me how I or anyone else could put a value on his art. I said I could start with how much the paint had cost him, and then the canvas, and then how many hours he had put into it, from idea to development to actually doing it. That's just to begin with. I said that of course the market takes care of things afterwards. People will purchase based on investment, on whether the piece moves them, or on their values, and you learn how to put a value on works.
I was reminded in some of your testimony about scarcity afterwards, about artists saying that's when they make the most money.
Framing that in terms of some of this discussion, I have to ask a couple of questions. How did you come up with 5%? Why 5%? Why the $1,000? What about passing this on, the ability to collect this, to the estate—to children or others? Do you have an opinion on that?
I'll also be sharing some time with David Lametti.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
Essentially, 5% is the standard in most countries. In Europe, there is a sliding scale, and it's based on the value of the work. For the most part, most Canadian artworks fall within the 4% to 5% range. It is basically the standard.
Even though the bill that was presented said that the threshold should be $500 minimum, we're recommending $1,000, because anything less than that does become more administratively difficult to manage. As Mr. London said, in Australia it's $1,000; in Europe it's about 1,000 euros. It's roughly the same in most countries.
You had a question about estates.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Yes, it was about passing the ability to collect that to the estate. I call it the estate—
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
Yes. Interestingly enough, that's where the resale rates started. A famous artist's family was living in poverty while his pieces were selling for far more than they did during his lifetime, so it started with estates.
Of course, we are primarily concerned with living artists, but, as Josh mentioned, it is often thought of as a collective thing. The royalties do help the family later on. Every other part of copyright includes estates, so why wouldn't this?
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
I just wanted to get that on record, too.
I'm going to pass it over to David Lametti. He had a question.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
I think one of your concerns, Mr. London, is tracking and finding owners, so let me throw this out to all of you in some way, shape or form.
We do have a registration system in Canada, which isn't that onerous, through CIPO. Would that help in terms of identifying the work?
On the other side, Ms. Britski, would you be willing, as an artist, to say that the work has to be registered in order to take care of that right, because you're outside of the Berne Convention? We could do that, conceivably.
Mr. Vettivelu, does that present problems for first nations and indigenous artists?
Mr. Guérin and Mr. Kitenge Banza, could this also help you in terms of the legislation regarding the works created before 1988?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
When you're asking if it needs to be registered in order to collect it, I think that would be—
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Would you be willing to trade that off in order to make it easier for dealers, and perhaps even extend it to fora like Kijiji down the road in order to get that revenue stream?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
I think it would make it more difficult just because we haven't had the practice of doing that up until this point. You'd have to go back and archive your whole collection and register each piece. It would certainly help, and I know that there are certain technologies that are being developed through blockchain to track provenance.
In order for this to work, I think collective management is definitely required, but registration is something that we hadn't necessarily looked into.
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
I just thought of something. Everyone talked about estates. Unfortunately, most Inuit artists die intestate, so who are the legitimate heirs between adopted children, biological children, etc.? No one has given us information as to who gets what.
Again, so many of the early pieces that are selling for impressive dollar figures are unsigned. Auctioneers are very hesitant about using the words “attributed to”. They just say, “This is by so-and-so.” It could be a free-for-all as to who gets what.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
If you attributed it, it wouldn't apply. If we don't know who made it—
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
I know, but I'm saying that auction houses often forget the words “attributed to” because they want it to sound as if it is definitely by.... All of a sudden, we could have a situation where the next-door neighbour says, “No, I made that.” Again, the question of who gets what is worrisome.
Also, what provisions are made for monies that are collected but are not distributable? In other words, rather than staying with the collective, do undistributed funds go to the Inuit Art Foundation to benefit Inuit artists directly?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
No, not necessarily. In some countries, the collective does get it; in some cases it goes toward pension plans for artists, and in some cases it goes toward an art purchase program. In the U.K., it goes back to the auction house and the dealer, actually, if they can't find them after six years. There are any number of options available.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
We're going to move to the final two minutes.
Mr. Masse, go ahead.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I represent a riding where 38% of Canada's daily trade goes into the United States. There's a place called Sandwich Town. It has one of the highest rates of poverty in Canada. It's where immigrants are. It's where there are a whole series of issues. The Underground Railroad was there, and rum-runners. It's a historic area.
Next to it is the Ambassador Bridge, where a private American billionaire has been granted a new border crossing with no community conditions, which has a negative relationship. To the west of this place is the new Gordie Howe bridge. The government has around $4 billion, which will give the community about $10 million over 35 years. In front of it is a port authority that's really rich and doing quite well. Then on the other side is a railway company that's doing okay. The problem in the middle is Sandwich Town. Everybody's getting rich but the people there.
It's almost the same frustration I feel in this committee. It seems what we're hearing is that the artists are not getting there; meanwhile, it's about the process in between, struggling to get at least fair compensation, to get it finally there.
I don't really have any questions. I'm sorry I dragged people through that again with the border, but I am totally frustrated over the fact that there are incredible amounts of wealth. It reminds me.... It's what's on YouTube and this and that and everything. There's an immense amount of wealth that doesn't seem to be getting through the system appropriately.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
It does seem to be a challenge. That's how the system works. You have to go through the process of studying and bringing it into the House and all that kind of stuff.
I did have a question.
On the weekend, in my riding, I went to an art show. There were some indigenous artists and I found a piece that I really liked. The price was pretty good. Now I'm thinking maybe I ripped the guy off or something.
This is the challenge. When you're talking about an art gallery, there's a whole process behind it. When you're talking about an individual like me, maybe I'll keep this forever, or maybe 10 years from now somebody will say, “Hey, I'll give you $5,000 for it.” Where does that fit into this thing? This is why this is complicated. Then I'm the bad guy because there is no registration.
That's where I think Mr. Lametti was going. If there was a registration, then that art would follow along to whichever artist it belongs to. It's complicated, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. With that experience I had, it's a beautiful piece, but....