Evidence of meeting #133 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accessible.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Simpson  Head, Public Affairs, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Lui Greco  National Manager, Advocacy, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
John Rae  Chair, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Paul Novotny  Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada
Ari Posner  Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada
Dan Albas  Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
David de Burgh Graham  Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the industry committee as we continue our continuation of our five-year legislative review of copyright.

Today, we have with us from the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, Mr. Simpson, head, public affairs; and Mr. Greco, national manager, advocacy.

We also have from the Council of Canadians with Disabilities, John Rae, chair, social policy committee. Welcome.

From Toronto, where they're having some big elections today, we have from the Screen Composers Guild of Canada, Paul Novotny, screen composer; and Ari Posner, screen composer.

We're going to get started with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. You have about seven minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Thomas Simpson Head, Public Affairs, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Thomas Simpson. I'm the head of public affairs for CNIB. Joining with me today is my colleague Lui Greco, who is national manager of advocacy.

We've ensured that we have a brief in Braille that should be sent to each member of the committee. I'm sure some of you are wondering why disability organizations are present today to be discussing Canada's Copyright Act. I hope the next few minutes of our presentation can better help you understand how Canada's Copyright Act can be altered to remove barriers for persons with print disabilities.

To start, I'd like to provide an overview of CNIB. We were formed in 1918 by war-blinded veterans coming back from World War I, as well as a result of the Halifax explosion. CNIB has been providing post-vision loss rehabilitation as well as emotional and social services to Canadians who are blind or partially sighted. We deliver innovative programs and powerful advocacy that empowers people impacted by blindness to live their dreams and to tear down barriers to inclusion.

3:30 p.m.

Lui Greco National Manager, Advocacy, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

When we talk about a print disability and the barrier that access to alternate format materials creates, you're experiencing it right now. It's very unlikely that you're able to read Braille, just as it is for people who are blind or partially sighted to be able to read print.

Unfortunately, the option of going to a bookstore and purchasing a book in an alternate format doesn't exist.

For Canadians with print disabilities, sight loss included, we rely on alternate format materials. This includes Braille, which is exactly what you have in front of you. Print Braille is, as it says, print and Braille. This is something that would be used by parents with blind kids or blind kids with sighted parents to be able for them to read together. We'll get you to listen to a sample of what digitized accessible speech sounds like.

[Audio presentation]

As you can tell, that's not exactly the most friendly sounding voice, but it's what many of us rely on because it's really all we have to choose from.

In Canada, we estimate that there are about three million people living with some kind of disability that creates a print disability. The material in accessible formats is rare. We're here talking to you today to try to bring that change around.

Worldwide, estimates of people living with some kind of disability are consistent with overall health estimates for sight loss.

The percentage of material that's available in alternate formats, as just explained to you, is somewhere between 5% to 7%—we're not really sure. What does this really mean?

A few years ago, I decided to take a course in project management. I registered through the university continuing education program, did reasonably well in the course. I got a B+. I paid my fees to the project management institute, studied, and when it came time to write the exam, I couldn't find a study exam that was accessible. I wrote to the author. The author said, “Go away”. I wrote to the project management institute, and they said, “Go away”. The end result was that I was the denied an opportunity to gain a professional designation that would have furthered my career.

3:30 p.m.

Head, Public Affairs, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Thomas Simpson

According to the Association of Canadian Publishers, more than 10,000 books are published in Canada each year. However, under Canada's current copyright requirements, publishers are not required by law or regulation to make these books accessible. Even with incentive programs through Canadian Heritage, Canadian publishers are under no obligation to produce accessible works, despite receiving public dollars.

The CNIB believes all books should be accessible. Whether it's just to ensure that accessibility applications can be used simultaneously with e-books or that Canadians with sight loss can buy Braille or electronic Braille copies in-store, all books published in Canada must be accessible.

We recommend that publishers be legislated to make accessible copies of their books. To do so, we recommend creating an additional subsection within section 3 of the Copyright Act, subsection 3(2), which would read, “For the purpose of this Act, a copyright cannot be granted to a literary work unless the production of such a work is done in an alternate format for persons with a print disability.” You can follow along in your Braille copy, if you'd like to know the specifics.

We believe that this sensible amendment to the Copyright Act would ensure that all books will be born accessible in Canada. Given the abundance of means by which accessible books can be produced, why does the lack of accessible books continue to be an issue?

3:35 p.m.

National Manager, Advocacy, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Lui Greco

Access to literature is important for a multitude of reasons for people with disabilities. It enables full participation in the economic and cultural fabric of our society. Inability to access published content makes it hard to succeed in education and work, as I illustrated earlier.

Future generations will need to compete in a faster paced world; thus, the need to have accessible books available at the same time—when the books are born—is going to be increasingly more competitive as the information age escalates.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. We'd be glad to try to answer any questions.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to the Council of Canadians with Disabilities.

Mr. Rae, you have up to seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

John Rae Chair, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Members of the committee, as you indicated my name is John Rae. I am a member of CCD's national council and chair of its social policy committee.

I'm here to talk to you about the dual issues of accessibility and usability. I assure you these two concepts are connected, but they are not synonymous.

In my time I'm hoping to cover five points.

Point number one is accessibility. As the previous speakers have indicated, many published works today are not accessible to folks like me or folks like them. That needs to change. Even when I receive reports from the Government of Canada that are sent to me electronically, I wonder whether when I open the attachment, my screen reader will say empty document, the bane of my existence. That tells me that I have received a PDF document that is not readable by my screen reader. Yes, this still happens in the year 2018, and it must stop.

I have done some work with your publishing people earlier this year. I'm hoping this problem is behind me, but I'm a skeptical guy. There is, of course, a simple way to solve the problem, and that is to stop publishing documents solely in the PDF format. It is, after all, the most problematic of formats. Or, if you continue to insist on using it, publish simultaneously a version in text or HTML. They are more likely to be accessible.

The act should bind Parliament insomuch and insofar as the publication of documents. All of your documents must be published in an accessible format.

Point number two is usability. I'm sure you've all heard the notion from some of your constituents that it often seems that government documents are written for lawyers and only for lawyers. I've seen some of you are lawyers and that's all right. I started up that road and didn't get there. I'm an advocate. I also need, as do other ordinary Canadians, access to the material you folks publish.

I'm talking about the need to write reports in plainer and more understandable language, and maybe even shorter in length. That would help too. As you know when a new document is released, the media is interested in responses the day it's released, perhaps the day after. If you're really lucky and it's really controversial, maybe two days later. People like us need to be able to participate in that discourse just like all other Canadians. That's the issue of usability. Documents need to be produced more in plain language.

Point number three is Braille. For blind people, Braille is our route to literacy. It is essential. Strange though it may sound, in the year 2018, while it is easier than ever before in human history to publish material in Braille, it seems like less and less of it is being produced. We can talk about why that's the case, but we'll save that for the time being.

There needs to be greater promotion of Braille. In the past, the Council of Canadians with Disabilities has recommended that the federal government establish a national program for disability supports. One of those areas could be the provision of refreshable Braille displays to those blind persons who need them and want them, to make access to Braille easier and to encourage more and more people to use Braille, because it really is our mode to literacy.

When the accessible Canada act was introduced, I immediately asked for it in Braille, because as you know every comma, every semicolon, can make a difference. I said that I might need it when I go to meetings to talk about it. Well, I had to justify as to why I wanted it. It wasn't just that I wanted it. I had to say why I needed it. I'm pleased that I did get it, and it has come in handy.

Point number four is publishers. I want to support the point Mr. Simpson made earlier. CCD believes in the addition of a disability lens, especially to Bill C-81, but I think it could be added to the Copyright Act as well, whereby no federal funds would be given to any program, policy, contract or grant that would contribute to perpetuating barriers or creating new ones. That would include grants or contributions to publishers.

Point number five, my final point, is the whole involvement of the publishing sector. Earlier this year, the office for disability issues called together a wide range of representatives: publishers, consumers, producers. I believe many of the right players were brought to the table. The goal was to produce a five-year plan for the production and the expansion of the availability of material in alternate formats.

We last met in May. So far, no plan whatsoever has been seen. The first year of those five is ticking away awfully fast. Still, no plan has been issued. Perhaps you folks can help us get that release. That would be helpful. Publishers need to be more involved. If that would involve maybe some initial assistance from Heritage Canada to help them get started or to rev up their work in producing accessible documents, then so be it. I would support that. Publishers need to do a better job, not only of producing documents, but making them available to public libraries and making them available for direct sale to consumers.

Thank you for the opportunity to come and talk to you about those dual questions about accessibility and usability. I would be happy to respond to questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Toronto, the Screen Composers Guild of Canada.

Mr. Novotny, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Paul Novotny Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Thank you very much. We're very happy to be here today.

Ari and I represent the Screen Composers Guild of Canada. Screen composers create original music for film, television, documentary and other screen media that is exported around the world. You may not know our names, but you may very well know our work.

3:45 p.m.

Ari Posner Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Most of the work I've done has been for television. I'm going to talk about just two shows that will be pertinent to this discussion. One was a show that I scored with a colleague of mine here in Toronto called Flashpoint, which was a procedural police drama that was a landmark show for Canada because it opened the floodgates to the U.S. in some ways. It was sold to CBS and it aired down there very successfully. That's an example of a show from the 20th century that aired terrestrially. Currently I work on a show that has a different model. It's called Anne with an E, which is a modern-day telling of Lucy Maud Montgomery's Anne of Green Gables. Anne with an E airs on CBC here in Canada, but in the rest of the world it's airing on the streaming giant Netflix in 190 different countries.

3:45 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Paul Novotny

I had the good fortune to work with George Stroumboulopoulos creating the music for CBC's The Hour. Also, I've written the music for CBC News Now, which is on Newsworld. Also, I did the music for CBC's The National.

The reason we're here today is because we want to tell you a little bit more about our dilemma and exactly how we locate ourselves in our creative ecosystem.

Screen composers are the first owners of their copyright. Like screen writers, screen composers are recognized as key creative people. Our music copyrights consist of two types of rights: a performance right and a reproduction right. These rights live alongside a separate bundle of motion picture copyrights. When our music is married to picture, it is distributed for domestic and international broadcast, generating copyright remuneration, which is derived from a broadcaster's advertising sales. Our remuneration is governed by copyright policy, not by us. SOCAN collects on behalf of us from around the world.

The money for public performance and reproduction rights is calculated on a per cent of quarterly advertising sales. Twentieth century copyright policy for screen composers is based on broadcast advertising sales. I want to ask Ari how that is working for him in the 21st century.

3:45 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Ari Posner

I'm here to tell you that it's not working well so far, and Anne with an E is a good example of it. This is a show that Netflix reported to the producers of the show. I might add that Netflix doesn't report a lot of data, but this is something that they reported to the producers, that the show was the fourth most binge-watched series on the network in 2017.

That's a pretty staggering statistic. It means that millions and millions of people are watching that show all over the world. They're watching it quickly. Anne with an E is about to start its third season next year, and I can tell you that, when I look at the remuneration I've seen compared to a show like Flashpoint, which was aired terrestrially, it's not an exaggeration to say that I've seen a 95% drop in downstream revenue.

3:45 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Paul Novotny

My story is that I recently wrote music for a film called Mishka, made by Canadian filmmaker Cleo Tellier. It has achieved 22.5 million YouTube views since April 22, 2018. The film is generating approximately $3,000 a month in YouTube advertising revenue. There is no connection, though, in the 21st century, of that advertising revenue to a public performance or a reproduction copyright.

At this point, Ari and I are both sitting here wondering what has happened to our public performance and reproduction royalties. The simple truth is that they've become insignificant, because the money has moved to subscription. We think that copyright policy must be augmented in order to gather adequate money from subscriptions to sustain our sector in the 21st century.

What has happened is a value gap has been created. We want the members of the committee and all Canadian citizens to understand exactly what this value gap looks like. I'm going to tell you right now.

In 2018, Netflix reported $290 million in net income for the first quarter, more profit in three months than the streaming giant had for the entire year of 2016. If the company meets its second quarter forecast of $358 million in profit, it will earn more in the first half of 2018 than in all of 2017 when it reported an annual profit of $585.9 million.

During the same time period, Ari Posner has experienced a 95% decline in public performance and reproduction copyright remuneration from the fourth most self-served, binge-watched Netflix TV series in 191 countries.

Ari, it seems like you and your family are subsidizing Netflix. What's going on in your household?

3:50 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Ari Posner

Let's just be clear, it's not just about me. I'm an example of someone who's in the middle of my career. I'll be 48 years old this year, and I have three young kids. I have a mortgage. I live a pretty basic middle-class lifestyle, and I've only been able to do that because of the value of my intellectual property on shows that I've worked on in the past.

Here I am, at this stage of the game, doing the same work on shows like Anne with an E that are more popular than anything I've ever worked on in the past, and yet the remuneration is not there. That is the value gap.

The only organization that can really help someone like me, my colleagues and my peers is an organization like SOCAN that advocates for us and goes after the performance and reproduction royalties from our work.

As it stands right now, the streaming giants, the big tech companies—the Amazons, the Hulus, the Netflixes—have no transparency, and they don't seem to need to have any transparency. I'm not sure why.

3:50 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Paul Novotny

We're going to finish up very quickly here. We have three things that we would like to request.

The Screen Guild wants to participate further in the process of crafting a fair-trade, techno-moral copyright policy for the 21st century so as to respect every constituent in the value chain of screen media, including the consumer.

We want Canada to adopt a philosophical vision that aligns with other countries and economic unions that embrace copyright protection for creators. An example could be found in EU articles 11 and 13, which espouse similar ideas to Music Canada and CMPC recommendations. With that, what we want to do is encourage you to endorse those recommendations.

Ari is going to finish up with a few principles that we believe are key to techno-moral copyright policy in the 21st century.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

We should just quickly wrap it up, because we are a little over time.

Thank you. Go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Ari Posner

I'm going to read you a quote that I would like to finish with. I read this to the heritage committee as well. This was something said by J.F.K.: “The life of the arts, far from being an interruption, a distraction, in the life of a nation, is very close to the centre of a nation's purpose—and is a test of the quality of a nation's civilization.”

I'd like everyone in the room to consider that if the government cannot intervene and help strengthen copyright laws to protect creators' rights, we are going to have a country that is going to be a far less rich place, because people are going to be discouraged from pursuing careers in that field.

Thank you very much for listening. I'm sorry I went a little over time. I'll be happy to take questions.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much for all of your presentations.

Normally, I just introduce the members as they go through questions, but seeing as we have some who are visually impaired, I will also introduce you by your party, so the witnesses will know where the questions are coming from.

We're going to start with Mr. Jowhari from the Liberal Party.

You have seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I will let you know that I will be sharing my time with MP Longfield.

I'm going to start with the Screen Composers Guild of Canada. Mr. Novotny or Mr. Posner—either of you could answer this question. This goes back to the testimony you provided in front of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, on September 25.

You brought up SOCAN, and you stated that SOCAN was unable to “get behind those closed doors of Netflix” and that Netflix would not be able to “give them the data they need in order for them to properly tabulate the views and turn them into a proper remuneration model”. You made similar comments about YouTube. You touched on both Netflix and YouTube in this testimony.

Can you tell us exactly what type of data needs to be collected from these two organizations to be able to fairly compensate? The numbers you are talking about—what they are going to hit by the middle of this year, compared to where they were last year—are astronomical. What data do you need to be able to make sure you get your fair share?

3:55 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Paul Novotny

Both Ari and I are composers. That is a question that would be best answered by somebody from SOCAN. I just honestly don't know.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Ari, you're of the same point of view?

3:55 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Ari Posner

You're talking about some very technical stuff there. It's really not our place to be speaking on their behalf. They are our advocates.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

In your industry, who is doing the licensing and remuneration negotiations with organizations such as Netflix and YouTube?

3:55 p.m.

Screen Composer, Screen Composers Guild of Canada

Ari Posner

It is SOCAN. It's only the performance rights organizations, like SOCAN and their counterparts around the world, that make these negotiations. However, they do not have the transparency from territory to territory. Netflix does not have to talk about what deal they made in this country versus that country. What SOCAN reports to us is they need to have more data in terms of the actual numbers of views and streams, to be able to tabulate popularity. That's what we've been told.

This is what we are getting from SOCAN. It's not as clear and simple as in the terrestrial model, where “here's our advertising revenue, here's the percentage that is dictated by the government by the tariff”, and there you go.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have about 30 seconds. I want to come back you again. What data do you think should be collected to make sure you get remunerated properly?