Industry Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Paul Davidson]

I will jump in on this because it's something I believe so passionately in. We've told you in the past about how international students in Canada contribute $10 billion a year to Canada's economy. That's more than the export of wheat. That's more than the export of softwood lumber. Think of the time and attention we're paying to those issues. Imagine if we paid similar attention to how we attract talent into this country at scale and then how we turn that around and get Canadians abroad.

The year 2017 is coming. What a year for a legacy to say we're going to send Canada's young people out in numbers never before seen, and they're going to be our ambassadors in India, in China, and in other fast-growing economies. We're really working together on getting Canadians out and about so they can see those global markets when they're young. Start young, start global.

Just to make the link, Christine was mentioning CRIAQ, the really collaborative work on aerospace led out of Quebec. We are connected through the European Commission through an €80 billion research effort to connect Canadian researchers to European researchers, and the CRIAQ collaboration is one where there is opportunity to do more.

This is how, again, through the long chain of research, innovation, and students, we can grow a competitive economy that's inclusive for Canadians.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you.

I only have a little bit of time left, but as a former high school teacher for 34 years, I saw the need for the dual credit. I dealt with work with RAP and all of those types of things. It's so important to be able to take the talented people you have and allow them to get into colleges. I know Olds College does that extremely well, and there are great opportunities. That's really where you get the excitement.

For those students who maybe don't quite fit into the normal path, when they can see what's happening at a college or a university and get the hands-on experience, it really means a lot to them.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Masse, you've got seven minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

One of the things that I'm concerned about with regard to colleges and universities and then exiting programs is the skills gap between what you learn at college and university and then how it's applied out in the workforce. Can you give me your comments on what you think about that situation?

[Christine Trauttmansdorff]

I think one of the things that comes to mind right away, and Paul talked about it as well, is the work-integrated learning, those co-op opportunities, the chance to get real work experience.

Georgian College has a great story on that front. Most of our members do have. Virtually every student has an opportunity to have an employment experience, but it's hard work to create those. Business partners need to make room for them. It's costly to find the appropriate placement for the student. In health care in particular, it's very difficult to get the practicums that are required in order to give the students the credentials they need.

I know Employment and Social Development Canada is working on a new framework for work-integrated learning. We're very keen to participate in those discussions and look at how the academic and the employer community can work together to enhance what is already happening.

[Paul Davidson]

I might add, first of all, that both CI Canada and Universities Canada are active members on the Chamber of Commerce's human resources policy committee, which is a group of HR professionals across the country, and it's listening very carefully to the antenna, to the needs of the workforce.

Secondly, I'm really struck by the changing nature of work-integrated learning. The co-op model developed at Waterloo is now 50 years old and it's really innovative and changing.

To give an example, the CEO of the Royal Bank, Dave McKay was saying that their approach to co-op at RBC is different than it used to be. It used to be that they would take students, put them through a co-op for four months or six months, and hold on to the best.

Now they're saying that they are going to give those students the toughest problems they are facing as a sector. They are going to put them in with their most senior people and actually hope they don't find the solution in the first four months, because they want them to go back into university with their colleagues and they'd like those students to develop a business. If it's a successful business, they will either buy it back, buy the business, or have it open to the whole financial sector.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

In those cases, for example, calling them work integrated, how many of them are paid?

[Paul Davidson]

That is a challenging issue. Let me just say that Universities Canada believes in high-quality internship placements and that they be remunerated properly.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay. But what percentage-wise—or you have no data on that?

[Paul Davidson]

I don't have that data today. We can look into that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Can you look into that? Here's what I'm concerned about. I used to work in the not-for-profit sector as an employment specialist for persons with disabilities and youth at risk, and I was a city councillor as well. We watched the universities and colleges have to struggle with income coming in. First of all, there was a far greater outreach to the provincial and federal governments for greater access to capital for various programs and services. Then there was outreach to municipalities, especially related to sports, culture, and facility infrastructure. Then there was outreach to business. We saw others lose that traditional base of support of philanthropy in communities because it was being tapped into, so not-for-profit organizations, charitable organizations, lost traditional partners. For example, automobile manufacturing has gone from fourth in Canada in a community like mine, to tenth overall. Also, many products and services are moving south because of different policies.

Then we've watched tuition go to some of the highest levels, if not the highest levels. I'm wondering what work is being done to look at the cost of the product that you have a student go through and exit; the cost of financing that investment, because it is an investment; and then of remuneration in the market, and how long it takes to pay back. I fear what a lot of people are doing is similar to what my partner and I did. We waited to have children till later in life to pay off student debt and buy a home and get into the economy in a different way. I worry that this been further exacerbated 20 years later.

[Dr. MaryLynn West-Moynes]

I'm mindful of your time. I think we can collectively get you some information about the return on investment at both a college and a university, and the difference between students who have to borrow money to go to school versus students who don't have to. We'll make an agreement to provide the committee with the correct data.

I'd like to talk a bit about the skill discussion for a moment. I'm worried about nomenclature. We keep talking about there being a skills gap. When I talk to business and industry, I hear that message, and then I have to work hard to translate what they mean for the different industries and the different types of organizations. They could mean they want to hire someone from a workforce unit that they're going to pay just above minimum wage and they need to make sure they can read and write to meet standards. Because there's a shortage now they're prepared to pay a little better than minimum wage, but they're more concerned about a skill in communication, teamwork, writing, and math.

A lot of people equate having a trade or a journeyman paper with having a skill. In some sectors there are shortages, and in others there aren't. Yet we talk about a skill gap of apprentices in this large group of people.

I don't think people understand what a technologist and a technician can do versus what an engineer can do. We keep putting them all in the same pot. It would be something of value for this industry to look at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

You've got about 30 seconds.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm going to get another round, so I'm going to let you have a full answer on that. We will start with that, so it gives you sufficient time, and I'll finish my last 15 or 20 seconds with this.

Over the last number of centuries we have allowed industry to stop training its own workforce and put that on the backs of young people who have to go through a training process more than in the past. There seems to be a continuation of this to the point where the return on your investment is very much a questionable use of resources at the end of the day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

That will be continued. Thank you.

Mr. Baylis, you've got seven minutes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'd like to talk about technology transfer. We hear an awful lot about the work that's done at universities and colleges, and a lot of technology and innovation is developed there. Then there seems to be a problem in moving it out of there and into businesses. This is generally done through technology transfers. In my experience, some do it very well, some do it absolutely terribly.

How do you see that, Paul? What are the opportunities to make this better? We'll start with you and move across.

[Paul Davidson]

There's more to be done in this area, and there's learning to be learned from other jurisdictions, as well.

If you think about the first 10 years—from 1996 to 2006 or so—with investments in research, higher education, and innovation, the emphasis was on discovery research. Over the ensuing decade, there's been more emphasis on the commercialization side and the attention to tech transfer. The development of programs like CECRs, another through IRAP, and the like have improved the capacity to move ideas out.

The big challenge, we find—and I think the Jenkins panel found this in its review—is the receptor capacity to pull the ideas from the university as—

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Are you saying they found a problem of people wanting to take them out?

[Paul Davidson]

Yes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Then I'll be clear. I've found a problem in the interface between the two, and that interface is the tech transfer office. I find that to be a huge problem in a lot of universities, particularly in Canada. I've had experiences in other universities and big American research centres. They're nowhere near as difficult to deal with.

[Christine Trauttmansdorff]

I think in colleges and institutes, we don't use the term “tech transfer”. We don't do any basic research. The institutions don't initiate any research. It's all demand pull. It's all industry partners and small business knocking at their doors. What that means is there's a ready market for it by virtue of where it starts.

I think where there's some work to do in the college and institute system in terms of this applied research and demand-driven research is in making sure that businesses, once they've had their problem solved, or their prototype worked through, or their new product developed, are able to scale that up from a business point of view.

I talked a bit about the support for business innovation. We talked about incubators and accelerators, and we're going to talk a lot about clusters, etc. over the next few months. We need to make sure what our members are able to do with their partners, that they are able to support the partners in making the most of that, and that the whole region is able to support them going forward.

[Dr. MaryLynn West-Moynes]

I don't see the same problem, but I understand the question having been in both a college and a university. I think part of it is who owns the intellectual property. It's not so much of a problem on the college side.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Why is that?

[Dr. MaryLynn West-Moynes]

It's clear that our faculty members are not required to publish, so it's not so important for them to hold onto the intellectual property. They're much more likely to engage with a manufacturer or an industry, because that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for experiences for their students to promote the learning. That takes tug and pull, and that's why I think we're playing so well in the applied research sector.

I would be looking to the issue of intellectual property.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I would agree with you about the intellectual property. I've had experiences that I've mentioned before at some large Canadian universities where the professor would say, “Frank, please take the idea. The people—and I won't call them ‘tech transfer’—inside the university are so slow and so bad that I trust you more to get this thing patented. If something comes of it, I'd rather do business with you than have to go through them.” It's not just one or two universities. Yet, when I go to the United States....

It comes down a lot to ownership and the idea of who gets.... If a company is coming in there, who owns it? I'm having difficulty seeing what you're saying.