That's right.
Evidence of meeting #141 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was authors.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #141 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was authors.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Associate Professor and Innovation Chair, Electronic Commerce, University of Toronto, As an Individual
If you want to stop piracy, the question is, what causes piracy? As I wrote in my report with respect to the CRTC, and I blogged about it, we don't have a piracy problem; we have a competition problem. We have a highly concentrated telecom market. We have incumbents that control the market, and they block the content. People want to watch the content, but in order to watch certain content, you have to subscribe to premium packages from the cable companies. For people who cannot afford doing that, if they can't obtain the content legally, they go elsewhere.
4:40 p.m.
Partner with McCarthy Tétrault and Adjunct Professor, Intellectual Property Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, As an Individual
You should read Professor Danaher, who actually does study this issue. He has found several studies saying that in fact it promotes the purchase at legal sites—
4:40 p.m.
Associate Professor and Innovation Chair, Electronic Commerce, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That's exactly the study—
4:40 p.m.
Partner with McCarthy Tétrault and Adjunct Professor, Intellectual Property Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, As an Individual
This committee should understand the facts.
4:40 p.m.
Associate Professor and Innovation Chair, Electronic Commerce, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That's exactly the study I was referring to.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
On a point of order, I would expect that the witnesses wouldn't have a debate amongst themselves.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Showing a bit of respect back and forth for the testimony would be appreciated. This is going in the wrong direction.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much. That is why we stopped that.
Mr. Graham, you have 30 seconds.
4:40 p.m.
Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.
Thank you for that. I think it was helpful. We'll figure it out.
Is it reasonable not to ask a court whom they can block? To me, it seems a really strange thing to say we can just arbitrarily block a site. There should be some court oversight. Is that unreasonable, that courts would oversee it?
I'm asking whoever wants to answer it within the 10 seconds I have.
4:45 p.m.
Partner with McCarthy Tétrault and Adjunct Professor, Intellectual Property Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, As an Individual
When it comes to blocking, the regimes around the world have done it in two ways. They either have court orders, or they've done it through administrative agencies, which have all the hallmarks of judicial oversight. We have Greece, Spain and others, about seven countries around the world that do it administratively with the process. I don't think it has to be a court, but it has to be a body with the expertise and the lawful authority.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move to Mr. Lloyd. You have five minutes.
December 3rd, 2018 / 4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you.
I love debating. That's why I got into politics. There is no offence taken by me here.
My first question is for Mr. Sookman. Do you think most people are aware they're actually pirating, or is it just something they think it's innocent, where they're on a website and it must be legal because they saw it?
4:45 p.m.
Partner with McCarthy Tétrault and Adjunct Professor, Intellectual Property Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, As an Individual
Mr. Lloyd, that's a great question. I appreciate that you like debates. Thank you.
It depends on whom you're talking about. One of the things about notice and notice, which does have its drawbacks, as Steven mentioned, is that when users who don't know what they're doing get the notice, they often do stop; or when they get the second notice, they often do stop. There are some people who do it as a matter of convenience. They think they can get away with it. They don't think they're going to get caught, and then when they or their parents get the notice, they say “Oops.” There are others who do know and don't care.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
May I interrupt? I appreciate that. Thank you. I have only five minutes.
I would say that, from what you said, most people aren't aware. They stop when they get a couple of things. However, I think Mr. Katz is quite right that if somebody is really determined to get it, it's very difficult to stop them. If we're talking about dealing with the majority of the issues, you would say with your site-blocking proposal, as with the notice on notice, that people will see that the site is blocked and they'll say, “Oh, it must be pirated; I shouldn't be doing that.”
Would you say that's effective?
4:45 p.m.
Partner with McCarthy Tétrault and Adjunct Professor, Intellectual Property Law, Osgoode Hall Law School, As an Individual
You're exactly right. There has been a lot of study of this by courts in the United Kingdom. The argument that has been put to those judges is that these orders are easy to circumvent, and they will be. The judges have actually found and expressed the opinion that in fact most users are going to abide by the order. They're not going to circumvent; they don't have the technical skills. Only a small number would, but that small number doesn't undermine the fact that these orders are effective.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you, Mr. Sookman.
Mr. Azzaria, I see you're itching for a question, and I do have a question for you.
Basically, you said that you think the system needs to be simpler, and I think Mr. Sookman also mentioned avoiding the legal costs. Would you have a recommendation as to how we can make the fair use system simpler, so that authors can be compensated and so we can also avoid all this legal back and forth?
4:45 p.m.
Director, Art School, Université Laval, As an Individual
As I said, maybe something close to the private copying regime with a type of compensation would be good.
What I was saying is that, generally speaking, I find the copyright law much harder to read. Each time there's a modification, we just add pages and pages.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Where would you recommend a clarification? We have private study; we have education; we have all these different exceptions. Is there a way we can roll it into something that's much more efficient and clear legally?
4:45 p.m.
Director, Art School, Université Laval, As an Individual
I even said you could add one for creative work by artists. A lot of contemporary art works with appropriation. I find some types of appropriation are on the good side of the fence, maybe not what Jeff Koons would do, but other kinds of appropriation. Actually, each week I have someone writing to me to say, “This is my work. Do you think it's appropriation or not?” There are no decisions in Canada on that question. There aren't big guidelines in Canada in the jurisprudence.