Evidence of meeting #48 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gender.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move on to Mr. Lobb, for five minutes.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thanks very much.
I think Mr. Arya is getting a little nervous from your recommendations there on corporate structures, and so forth.
I have a question for you and it's to do with the diversity policy. Either one of you can answer it, it doesn't matter.
I'm a middle-aged white guy. That's where I'm at. I have no problem putting in a target, putting in a little teeth into this legislation to address the shortcomings. Why are the Liberals afraid? You don't have to say why. Why isn't there more in this legislation to address this issue? Because to me, it says “shall” in the legislation, and shall is never going to happen.
Give me your thoughts.
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I wasn't there when the legislation was crafted, and I would not presume to speak on behalf of any members of the government because I'm not in the government. It's something that warrants looking at very closely, whether you want to be the leaders and actually step forward and say we need to have specific aspirational targets. We need to be crystal clear that we are focused on gender, because that's been the success in other jurisdictions where they have made it crystal clear.
I think the Prime Minister has been very vocal in terms of equality and the desire to move forward. Certainly, when you look at some of the provinces, Quebec has been a leader in terms of its public appointments. It made it very clear that it was going to have the adequate gender representation in terms of its public appointments where it has control, and it has done that. I think that it is very important to state your intentions very clearly.
I can't speak about what the thoughts were going into it, but I can say what is certainly desirable moving forward.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Again, I know you're not a lobbyist, but would you have a recommendation, with your research, to make that specific part of the bill better?
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I would certainly recommend that the word “gender” appear in the legislation itself, so that you're crystal clear that's one of the things you are doing. By adding gender, you're saying we want equitable gender representation on our boards.
We also want diversity, but equitable gender representation will bring diversity. You will get a range of diversity, but it doesn't preclude the possibility that you're adding from various different kinds of diversity, whether it's visible minority groups, indigenous, representation by region, age, or experience. There's a variety of experiences.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Right, and that's why people like Mr. Arya and the Prime Minister are hypocritical, because they go around saying all this stuff, but then when it comes time to actually put it to paper, there's no grit to them at all. That would be my problem with them.
The other thing I cannot figure out is, what is so difficult about a diversity policy? Why can't they cement that diversity policy criteria into your corporate mandate?
Can either of the groups here try to explain to me how this is putting such an onerous requirement on corporations that have hundreds of HR people, hundreds of lawyers, working for them? The Liberals can't even force themselves to put that in there as a mandated thing. I can't figure this out.
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I'm not going to comment again on the politics, because that's not my role here.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
I wouldn't expect you to do so, but actually on the diversity policy.
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
It's not simple, obviously. There have been many efforts by many corporations.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
With all due respect, ma'am, there are many corporations that have it in. Bombardier—
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
Yes, but let me finish. It's not simple but it's very doable. It's doable when you have leadership from the top, when there's the will in the organization, and when they look at all of their processes: their hiring processes, their promotional processes, how they are doing in terms of equitable pay among the women and the men in their organization. You just have to look at why the banks and the financial sector are moving ahead. It is because there is strong leadership there.
It is very doable. It takes strong leadership. If that leadership isn't happening, then certainly governments have a major role in giving them a push. You can start with aspirational targets, you can start with the clear message that we want increased representation of women on boards, and if it doesn't happen within the specified period that you have targeted, then you need to look at harder measures. There is no reason for it not to happen. It's in the best interests of corporate Canada.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move to Mr. Jowhari.
You have five minutes.
February 21st, 2017 / 9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, witnesses. I want to thank you for the testimony you have provided today.
I want to ask for your input about a topic I'm quite passionate about and have taken a lead on with this specific bill.
As you know, in order to be able to determine the success of any legislation, we need to have the ability to review it. I want to know your thoughts on specific periodic review of the objective that's contained in this bill.
We'll start with Ms. Woodside.
9:55 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Publish What You Pay Canada
As I understand it, you're referring to a statutory mandatory review of the CBCA.
Speaking for myself, I would say the CBCA is a really critical act, and it's very powerful. As we know, limited liability is a major intervention in a free marketplace, limiting what's available to creditors and others. I think, therefore, a regular review is very important to ensure that it optimizes....
I believe it's 10 years—is that right—in the current statute?
9:55 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Publish What You Pay Canada
My own personal view is that a statutory review—
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
We've heard from some witnesses about three years, and we've heard from some witnesses about five years. I wanted to get your input as to the need for it to be legislated, as well as on the time frame you're suggesting and why you're making that suggestion.
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I think there's much more in this legislation, obviously, than diversity and gender. It's a very important and large piece of legislation. If you really want to look at whether you are being successful with respect to your goals around gender and diversity, you need to be looking at what is happening on an annual basis to see whether it's progressing.
The world is changing very rapidly, much more rapidly than it has in the past, and so I think—
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I think the bill is suggesting that we are going to look at that on an annual basis; however, I'm talking about looking at the effectiveness of the bill itself, coming back and asking whether the act is really meeting the objective.
There is no time frame. There is no periodic review right now in the bill. I'm asking for your input. Should there be one, and if it's there, what period would you recommend?
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I think there definitely should be one. I think for a full review, the norm is about five years.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
So you're saying yes for review, and five years is your recommendation.
We've talked about diversity, about gender, about the different percentages, and we've talked about various jurisdictions and how successful they have been. What other measures would you recommend we include as part of this bill, again, to assess the success of the bill in achieving its objective?
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
For me, it's the whole “explain”. If you're not complying, how are you doing? When you talk about putting in reports, annual or otherwise, there should be an explanation. How are you achieving it? Have you made diversity one of your priorities within the organization? Those are measures, and then there should be an explanation of how you are doing in every annual—
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
We talked about diversity, and we talked about how one measure within diversity could be gender. I get that. What measures aside from gender diversity should be in there?
10 a.m.
Executive Director, Centre for Women in Politics and Public Leadership, Carleton University
I'm not sure what you mean by “measures”. Are you talking about whether you are achieving diversity with respect to indigenous groups or visible minorities? You should be looking at all of those when you're looking at your percentages as the number is increasing on the boards.