Evidence of meeting #55 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I'm going to move on to Mr. Thomas and get his opinion before I run out of time.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
No, you're talking about other personal stuff that I'm not really interested in and I would prefer to spend my limited time with Mr. Thomas.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I make a distinction between external trust in the agency and its products, among the principal users, the organizations that rely upon it, but also Canadians in general. There was a bit of damage to the image and reputation of Statistics Canada in the outside world as a result of the events of 2011, and that will take time to fully restore, but most Canadians aren't that well informed about the role of Statistics Canada.
However, there's another level of trust, and that's internally. We've relied in the past on these unwritten conventions and informal understandings on how the relationship between the government and the agency should operate, between the minister and the chief statistician. Trust was harmed by the events of 2011. That will be more codified and formalized in this bill.
Trust is an elusive phenomenon. It's difficult to develop, it takes time, it can be quickly lost, and it's difficult to restore. Now we'll have a new set of more formal working relationships, and I think that's where we should be at this time in the 21st century.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move on to Mr. Baylis. You have seven minutes.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I'll start off with a set of questions to do with the advisory council. First of all, Mr. Sheikh, was it of value to the advisory council in its present form when you were chief statistician?
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I found the council to be extremely helpful. In fact, whatever path we were going to be on, to make substantial changes to something, my approach was to take it to the council, hear out what they had to say, make my decisions, but then get back to the council to explain why we had done what we had done.
Liberal
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
They were a sounding board, and I must say that I did get good advice.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I've been led to believe that it was very narrow, with a particular interest. Is it a proper reflection that your advisory council was very narrow in terms of its scope and understanding? It was mostly made up of academics and people with very specific personal interests.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
No. We wanted to get the membership of the NSC to ensure that in every subject matter area, we had an advisory committee on their subject matter. The NSC would have to fill the gaps that were not filled at that level, and the appointment of the members was based on that. By the way, it was the minister who would send these letters of appointment.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Okay.
There is a question about moving that from 40 down to 10. Are you in agreement with that change? What are your thoughts on that?
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I think 40 is too much; 10 is probably too little. So it's somewhere in between. It's hard to pick out a number. A bit more than 10 would be helpful.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Thomas, you had actually thrown some numbers out and had some thoughts on the advisory council. Perhaps you could expand on that, please.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes, I'll reflect briefly on my time on the National Statistics Council. The first time I was appointed, the official letter to join the council came from the minister. On subsequent renewals, it came from the chief statistician. So it seemed to shift back and forth between the minister's office and the chief statistician. It would be good to have one consistent approach to appointment.
As I suggested, there is some uncertainty about whether this new body is to perform a representational role. In other words, would it capture the regional, linguistic, occupational diversity of Canada, and all sorts of other considerations, or is it more like a semi-governance body that is there to oversee the operations of Statistics Canada?
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Which role do you think it should play, with your experience?
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
It would be a great loss if there wasn't a larger body with some representational role. I think it's a false dichotomy to say it's absolutely either-or. It could be a kind of hybrid model. But that takes you into the range of 20 to 25 people, as I suggest. As Munir Sheikh and previous chief statisticians have pointed out, there's a large array of committees that give advice to Statistics Canada, including provincial-territorial statistical advisory committees.
So this body, though, didn't bring an institutional perspective. It wasn't a particular organization. We were encouraged as individual members to leave our institutional identity at the door and come into the room and ask the question: what's in the best interest of the national statistical system?
It would be helpful, for example, to have somebody from the north, from one of the three territories—or maybe more than one.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
So it wasn't necessarily a fixed regional...but regional would have been interesting. But it didn't have to say, I've covered everyone. You mentioned that there are other advisory councils that are regionally based. Is that correct?
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes, and then there are specialized ones on a sort of functional basis. What does the mining industry need, or resource industries, more broadly? There's a wide array of those. It's not like the chief statistician and his executive team is without advice in terms of segments of Canadian society.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
This could actually just play a catch-all global role. As Mr. Sheikh said, he could come and bounce around ideas and then still have ideas coming from different sectors, different areas of the country.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Some members of the current council, the National Statistics Council, are not so much extensive users of statistical data. They're people like me. They are more process and administrative people. Those kinds of people are useful as well, as the chief statistician deals with the Prime Minister's Office, the Treasury Board, committees of Parliament, and so on.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you for that.
I'll turn to you, Mr. McKinnon, now and hear your reflections on both the composition of the board and the changes that are being proposed. There have been some arguments that there's been a lack of transparency. Maybe you could address that.
Chair, National Statistics Council
First, I think the optimal composition of the proposed group flows very much from what it is you want it to do. I was pleased to hear what Munir Sheikh said, that we were a consultative group and tried very hard, as Paul has said, to leave our individual occupational hats at the door and to reflect regional topic areas in the whole country.
For me, the critical issue is not what an ideal advisory group looks like until you've defined it. Therefore, what you really need to consider is what function that group should perform and where it fits into increased independence, transparency, and all of those, and this reporting function that it's given, and then flow out. Insofar as it acts as part of a series of balances and checks to assure independence and professionalism, it shouldn't have the same composition as we currently have. There should be significant overlap in terms of the composition.
You need the specific areas of expertise, which we already have on the council, but because it will have a changed mandate, it should also reflect that changed mandate. I also believe, therefore, that the recruitment and appointment process should be more public, transparent, and meet the typical tests for that kind of an agency.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move to Mr. Lobb. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thank you all for attending. We've certainly had some great panellists at our last two meetings, for sure. It is great to have feedback like this.
My first question is for Mr. McKinnon. You're the chair. I apologize that I was late, but I was here for your words. Can you tell this committee how or if you were consulted by either the minister or the department on this bill?