Industry Committee on April 6th, 2017

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Is that shared?

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

Maybe I could offer a perspective. I was twice chair of boards of crown corporations in Manitoba, appointed by different governments and advertised to be a non-partisan board chair. I had colleagues on those boards of directors who came from political backgrounds, but they had appropriate expertise. Just because someone at some time in the distant past, perhaps, had been a Liberal, a New Democrat, or a Conservative doesn't mean they should automatically be disqualified. Again, it goes back to the purpose of this body. A very small body of 10 people I think would send the message we're all about governing. That we're there to oversee the chief statistician, we're invited to step over the line between the policy-making inside Statistics Canada and become interested in the budget process, in staffing the agency, in operational matters. I think that would be a danger. It's not like a board of directors of a crown corporation, or a private corporation, a commercial firm. It's a different entity. The body would be there to serve the public interest. There, I think you need broader representation than just 10.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

That's perfect. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

We're going to move to Mr. Longfield. You have five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you for the questions from across the way.

I agree with Mr. Lobb that these last two meetings have been exceptionally good for presentations. Thank you for all your non-partisan presentations on a difficult subject.

In 2010-11, I was president of the Chamber of Commerce in Guelph, and tracking the labour statistics. I was really disappointed, to say the least, that the long form was taken away. I found I wasn't the only one. I was looking at it from business, but the not-for-profits really surprised me; how much they rely on census information. When we restored the long form, they all wanted to come and hug me, which is okay.

They were looking at homelessness and at issues around poverty reduction. When those issues from our communities are coming forth through the government, could you talk about how governance picks up on that? What leads the charge in what surveys are done, what's regulatory, and as Mr. Dreeshen said, we have the census of population, the census of agriculture, but what other mandatory way could we have to address homelessness and poverty reduction in our communities using StatsCan?

[Ian McKinnon]

I'll go to the front. You've raised an enormous issue, and I tried to emphasize in my testimony earlier that what matters is the Canadian statistical system. The census is critical because it's the foundation and the benchmark against which we track everything else. The reason that the changes, the independence, and the trust are so important, is that it's not just a question of whether we should do a single survey, change a question in the census, but also, where do we get administrative records? Will provinces...? When you're into issues like homelessness, you need social data, education data, and health data to become the trusted repository of information that may be collected, particularly through administrative records. That's what I think is really at stake here.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Is that addressed in this legislation?

[Ian McKinnon]

I do not believe you can compel any of that by legislative fiat. You have to reinforce the climate that said this is a trusted system and agency that we will entrust with our data.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

When it isn't trusted.... I have two elements in terms of customer service, and we had a lot of testimony around customer service at the last meeting. In March 2014, Guelph's labour force went from 82,000 to 92,000 in one month. It jumped by 10,000. It's never been corrected. I've always been suspicious about that number. The process to correct it is one issue.

Along the same line, we have an employer that has 26 locations and has to submit census information for each of the 26 locations, instead of consolidating and doing the job once. It takes them a day and a half to prepare the information. They would like to get that corrected.

In either, how would corrections be taken forward to Stats Canada under the current system, and would it be improved in the new legislation?

Mr. Cappe, I'm a University of Manitoba grad, so maybe I have to direct it towards you to start off.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

You mean Mr. Thomas.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'm sorry.

Mr. Thomas.

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

Here in the middle of the country, the real centre of Canada—

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

—bone-cracking winters and killer mosquitoes...we've got it all.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

They'll smack you back.

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

It's an important point that goes back to the role of the current National Statistics Council. I'm one of two members on it from Manitoba. We had a few fights break out between Manitoba's statistical agency and Statistics Canada over whether there was an undercount of population. That matters. It means millions of dollars in equalization payments, for example.

Manitoba officials came to me and said, “Let us hear your side. We want to tell you our side of the story.” It turns out that there were methodological disagreements, but I'm saying that's an example of how it helps to have someone in a particular province who's at least somewhat identifiable as a figure of this and who has connections with Statistics Canada but is not on the payroll of Statistics Canada.

That's the kind of thing I would offer as a suggestion for why 10 people is not enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Ms. Blaney. You have two minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

Just to reiterate what the former member said, I ran a non-profit before this, and the value of the information was tremendous. When we lost it, it was a huge detriment.

Could you tell us, Mr. Sheikh and Mr. McKinnon, why you think the government has resisted the idea of adding a preamble consistent with the United Nations Statistical Commission declaration?

[Dr. Munir Sheikh]

I don't know why the government has resisted the idea, but as a former chief statistician, I find the principles to be extremely valuable. For example, Bill C-36 talks about the chief statistician doing his or her job. It makes it very clear, and the language in that is what I would say is a one-sentence summary of the principles. That's one reason.

I'm not quite sure what extra value you would get by adding those principles. It really is right there, in my view.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

But they would change, too.

[Dr. Munir Sheikh]

They would change as well. The principles change, so putting them in the legislation creates the challenge that you have to amend that law.

The other thing I want to mention here is that Canada plays a huge role in the UN. I, as the representative of StatsCan, was put in that position to play that role. On many occasions, we actually lead the UN in many things. I'm somewhat concerned about putting the UN in the law, when Statistics Canada may be doing a better job than anybody else. To me, it's a bit of a challenge.

That actually gives me a flexibility, so I think what we have here is just fine.

[Ian McKinnon]

It's not the Statistics Council's business to endorse, or not, the UN Charter. We've been well aware of it, and we think it is a very terrific series of guidelines. In our discussions, we have always said that whatever Canada does should be consistent with those guidelines.

Frankly, on the issue of legislative drafting, I can't opine as to why they did or did not include it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you.

We have to move on. We have enough for half a round so we're going to go back to Mr. Baylis.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There has been a consistent message from all four of you including Mr. Fellegi and Mr. Smith, people who testified about the need to make sure we have a differentiation between the methodological statistical issues and political governance.

It reminded me of the old saying, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” I figure you want to leave the lies and damn lies to us, and you will take care of the statistics. I would like to explore that.

We will begin with Mr. Cappe.

In your testimony, you mentioned that it was necessary to clarify that point of view.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Personally, I don't think it is possible to clarify that.

However, it would be possible to face that tension and try to find a balance between the two. In my opinion, that is one step, and as we were saying, the law isn't going to be changed.