Industry Committee on June 1st, 2020

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

To my understanding, and I think it would also be true for the StarFish ventilators, the ones that the federal government is contracting for are to be distributed by the federal government to the provinces and/or stockpiled. As well, potentially, if Canada's need are met, including for future possible second waves and things of this nature, then there is at least the consideration, from the statements made by government individuals, including the Prime Minister, of possibly offering them to other countries that are in great need. That's my understanding.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Good afternoon, witnesses. Thank you for being with us today.

Professor McDonald, I'd like to ask you a question with regard to the Health Canada approval. As my colleagues have already touched on, you are seeking the approval. We know that in the United States there are a lot more approvals happening at a much quicker rate, but they're not necessarily being as careful about what they are approving. I think it's a good thing that Canada is taking this approach of being careful and making sure that only the right equipment is being used and that the right tests are being approved.

From reading your testimony and hearing you this morning, I was under the impression that it's been a while that you've been seeking the approval, but you just said that you haven't even applied yet. Is that correct?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

That is correct, and it is because what Health Canada will approve is what is manufactured in Canada. In the last three or four weeks, companies in Canada in combination with our partners in Europe have been industrializing the design and have been securing the supply chain. It was necessary in some instances to wait until there was a signed contract in order for them to make commitments on such supply chains.

This week we have a complete device in Italy. We have the start of production of devices of a similar nature here in Canada. It will take us a few weeks to test them. Then that will be submitted to Health Canada, but in the meantime our discussions with Health Canada are to define what we should be testing and the complete set of tests that they will require, which in some cases means going slightly beyond what the FDA has asked for. They have been very helpful that way.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much for clarifying. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Dreeshen.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much. Indeed, it's an honour for me to be able to speak here today and to ask questions.

There was a comment earlier about the lack of Canadian taxpayer research dollars going to science and so on, but I remember a few years ago when I was in Germany with the science minister and we had an opportunity to talk to folks like those from the Liebniz and Helmholtz and Max Planck research institutes. Really, they were saying that per capita and per GDP, the Canadian taxpayer actually puts in just as much as any place else does. The fact is that we have difficulty getting our private sector linked in. Of course there are many reasons for that. One, of course, is that we have 37 million people. We have six time zones. We have 14 different government entities, and we aren't the main draw when it comes to businesses.

I think it's important that we recognize this. Canada has always done some amazing work, which is one of the reasons why amazing scientists, such as Mr. McDonald, are be able to do the great things that they do.

When we are talking about Health Canada, Mr. McDonald, you just mentioned that you were anticipating three to five days because that was what you were being assured by Health Canada. Unfortunately, a lot of other companies have been given similar assurances that once they have their applications in, things are going to happen for them. I hope that because of your appearance here at this committee, people will take note and we will see that happen.

I'm just wondering if there are certain things you have seen. Maybe you haven't experienced yet how approvals happen out of the United States or the European Union, while we are still waiting in Canada for Health Canada. Is the Canadian process working the way it should be in these particular times, and can we improve the approvals? Are there any impediments that you've heard about from those companies and researchers who have been trying to get their work onto the world stage ?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

I really don't think I'm qualified to comment effectively on Health Canada's actions with respect to others.

Admittedly, as one of the four ventilator projects—StarFish being another one that was approved by the Canadian government—and having been given priority, we have exceptional access to Health Canada, so we have had, and I referred to this in terms of turnaround time, the preferred situation. It's very difficult for me to comment on the general situation, other than the fact that it's obvious there is an awful lot being looked at carefully by Health Canada right now. I certainly have some sympathy with them in terms of the workload that is on their plate.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much. Of course, there are so many companies that have made applications. No doubt they have to be well scrutinized.

What you just mentioned was that, unless they are going to be manufactured here in Canada, they are not particularly going to become a priority. You mentioned the work that had been done in Italy and how those approvals by the EU seem to be moving along and that you still have to go through the due diligence here in Canada.

Is this also part of the reason we continue to hear about different things happening in the U.S., and people are saying, “Why don't we take a look at this now?” and wanting these new procedures or new technologies to be used in Canada?

If it is the case that we have this international conflict or at least slowdown, is there anything we as a committee could be doing here to try to help out in this situation?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

I'm very pleased that we have been able to mobilize several Canadian companies to get into this needed technology. The companies themselves have been extremely co-operative and have brought expertise to the table. I'm sure it's also happening with the StarFish device, as that is company that already has experience in this area.

I think this is a case where, as you mentioned the discrepancy in terms of total expenditure in Canada is primarily associated with R and D done here in Canada. This is an example where company co-operation with national labs and universities has been a very positive experience. I think it's good for the country.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you, Dr. McDonald.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Lambropoulos. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with MP Longfield.

I was up before but I'd like to follow up a little. You mentioned that you were not looking to get a patent with whatever is produced under this project. Can you please tell us what the benefits are of this? I know that Canada should be looking to own as much intellectual property as possible and we should be looking to.... Can you please tell us what the balance is and why you think it's a good thing that we won't be looking for a patent?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

If you look at the expansion of COVID-19 into South America, Africa and parts of Asia, such as India, they are still in an exponential rise in terms of the number of cases. On the question of having broad manufacturing capability around the world on a new design that is potentially simpler than the quite complicated devices typically on the market, which are intended to do many other things, and the potential for that to be geared up quickly by companies in other countries, particularly if they have relationships with our companies, for example, we wanted our device to be accessible to the world. It's as simple as that in terms of our objective in doing it this way.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

It is for humanitarian purposes, mostly.

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

It is for humanitarian purposes. That's right.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Do you think any conditions should be placed in these cases? Obviously, you want it to be available to everyone in the world so that we can help as many people as possible, but should there be any conditions?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

The intellectual property that we as scientists and engineers have brought to this, we all wish for it to be as open as possible. In dealing company to company between our manufacturing partners and other companies, that's their objective, although I think they're also motivated by humanitarian reasons and their profit margin is going to be conservative in this case.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

My last question is in regard to our international partners. I know this is not just a made-in-Canada approach. You've been working with Italy and other countries as well. What role do these other countries play? A lot of the public opinion is moving towards making things in Canada, really being dependent solely on Canadian businesses and trying to be more protectionist, because we've experienced some issues with being dependent on other players. What positive role do you think the international players can play in the COVID-19 situation?

[Dr. Arthur McDonald]

Let me give you the example of our dark matter studies. We're looking for the particles that make up five times as much mass in our universe than we do and that hold our galaxy together. We have a project happening at SNOLAB right now. We are working internationally with a group that is looking at something 10 times bigger and has committed to something 10 times bigger than that to be done here in Canada, perhaps 10 years from now, when there would be tremendous economic benefits, again, back here in Canada.

The international co-operation of 400 scientists and 14 countries in this collaboration is a way in which Canada can both contribute to very fundamental questions, where we don't know what this part of our universe is, and scale up to try to get the ultimate sensitivity, which could happen at our laboratory, SNOLAB, but would require major co-operation on the scientific front from other countries. It is becoming typical in particle physics—has been for a while—and I think it will have economic benefits in the long term as well.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

I will direct my first question—if I can get two questions, we'll see—to Jeff Musson.

Thank you for mentioning the work you're doing with our veterans. We have a policy in place that after 12 years of service, veterans can have up to $80,000 in training or for six years of service, $40,000 in training, including cyber-training. Have you worked at all with the Future Skills Centre, the centre that we set up last Parliament?

[Jeff Musson]

We've started preliminary discussions with them. We've been working more directly with Veterans Affairs and with CAF and their transition group, so we've been able to plug in with those. That's how we've connected in.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'd love to follow up with you at another time on the Future Skills Centre.

[Jeff Musson]

Absolutely.