Evidence of meeting #22 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Burton  Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Patrick Leblond  Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, Faculty of Social Sciences, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Daniel Schwanen  Vice-President, Research, C.D. Howe Institute
Willie Gagnon  Director, Mouvement d’éducation et de défense des actionnaires

Noon

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here.

It's an interesting topic. It's something the industry committee first delved into back in 2002-2004 with China Minmetals. We had no national security screen at that time with regard to oversight of the Investment Canada Act. In fact, there were over 9,000 files, and not one had actually been reviewed or taken down from the acquisition process at that time.

Today, we have this discussion. We need to actually characterize what people can relate to. There was Rona. There you go. How well did that work out for Canada? Lowe's took it over and closed stores, so there was less competition for consumers.

We had Zellers as a retail operation. Target came in from the United States. Zellers was actually making a profit and paid its workers more than its competition. Then Target withdrew from Canada, closed Zellers, and we had less competition.

Eaton's was taken over by Sears. We know how Sears ended up in Canada, actually committing pension fraud against workers, which to this day the government has not addressed, as this unfunded liability has been borne basically by working-class people at their expense. Again, that was allowed to take place under the Investment Canada Act.

Others were Alcan, Inco, Falconbridge, Stelco and Electro-Motive in London. There were issues related to MacDonald, Dettwiler, and we fought and stopped that. Even the Aecon construction company in Canada was proposed to be taken over by Chinese construction firms at that time.

Ironically, where I am, where I've been fighting since 1998 for a new border crossing, Aecon would have been denied building the new Gordie Howe International Bridge because the United States didn't want the Chinese government involved. We are actually building that crossing right now, which is responsible in my area for 40% of the daily trade between Canada and the United States, about $1 billion and about 10,000 trucks per day.

Had Aecon been taken over by the Chinese at that time, it would have made the project or bid null and void, reducing it to basically a competitive process of one bidding agent left over from the three that were tendered. Again, competition at the expense....

I think about the fact that we have our Canada Pension Plan as well when we talk about not being able to say no to anything because it's a laissez-faire market and we have no real interest in determining winners or losers. I've heard that terminology before, and it hasn't really worked out very well for Canadians.

I think about our Canada Pension Plan, which has invested in private health care facilities in Ontario for seniors, making a profit at a time when we needed the military to come in and clean up things there. I think about British Columbia, where right now Anbang, which the Chinese state government really owns, is treating and caring for our seniors because Canadians can't afford to do so ourselves, or we've left it open to them to decide as to those practices.

I find this discussion void of the real consequences in the employment aspect and also the statutory importance of having a strategy to go along with competing in the world.

It is interesting, because Canada is one of the few states that doesn't' have sectoral strategies. If you look at Kia Motors, which competes here in Canada, and Volkswagen and others in the automotive sector where I come from, you see that they are heavily subsidized by state governments, either through direct investment or through their pensions, and there are also industrial strategies. In fact, even Mexico, which recently signed an agreement with the United States, and you could even argue Trump with regard to his behaviour concerning re-industrialization, have moved national strategies and resources, and somehow we're supposed to just forget all of that and look at the part coming in.

I do want to pose one question with regard to this discussion, though, and it is to any of the witnesses who have come before us here today. We are talking about China in particular, but what about private equity firms? Is there an interest out there to actually have some public disclosure when Canadians invest? Should there not be public disclosure by municipalities, provinces and federal governments? In particular, with regard to ownership, tax deductions, credits for innovation and research, as well as direct subsidies, and that includes reducing corporate taxes, do we not have an interest to guarantee that those companies at least have some domestic control, and shouldn't we provide that screen for private equity firms as well as the state of China?

If anybody wants to answer, I'd be happy to listen. If not, then I can continue this, because this is simply unacceptable. It's absurd that we are the only country, I think, in the industrialized world that has this type of a laissez-faire policy in place and we basically say, “Good luck. It's too complicated. You sort it out.”

12:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Public and International Affairs, Faculty of Social Sciences, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Patrick Leblond

Daniel, do you want to take that one?

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Research, C.D. Howe Institute

Daniel Schwanen

Yes, Mr. Leblond.

Do we have time?

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

You do.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

You have 15 seconds.

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Research, C.D. Howe Institute

Daniel Schwanen

I wish to say that focusing on foreign ownership per se is not exactly the issue. We've had lots of Canadian investments that went bust all by themselves, including in foreign countries. We have a long list of those.

The question is whether the Canadian or foreign investor follows Canadian policies, follows Canadian regulations and follows Canadian laws. We all have the same interests in a thriving economy. The question is whether being a foreign investor by itself—because of who controls foreign investors, for example—is really threatening that ability, that sovereignty of Canada to be able to enforce its own rules, regulations, labour laws, etc., over its own territory.

If it doesn't threaten it, then I think foreign investment should be welcome. All investments can do very well, but a lot don't do well, and that applies to whether they're Canadian-owned or not.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to our second round of questions.

The first round goes to MP Gray. You have the floor for five minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all of the witnesses for being here today.

My first questions are for Dr. Burton.

You previously described Canada's relationship with China as one of economic coercion. Do you believe this would mean that Canada would be less likely to look at reviewing or rejecting Chinese state-owned enterprises and their attempts at acquiring Canadian corporations?

12:05 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

That's an excellent question.

I do think that the pre-existing economic leverage that China has in Canada—important Canadian firms that have extensive business dealings with Chinese Communist networks and at the same time have influence over decision-makers, particularly, let's say, in the Prime Minister’s Office—has inhibited our ability to properly review whether Chinese investments in Canada are in the net benefit of Canada. This particularly leads to the kind of thing that Professor Paris referred to as economic leverage.

The situation in Britain now is that the British government is considering not using Huawei in its 5G after all, and the Chinese embassy has threatened Chinese investments in the British nuclear sector. When the Australians suggested that there should be an independent study of the origins and nature of China's response to COVID-19, the Chinese government threatened to limit exports to China of Australian wine. It's already limited barley and meat, is threatening coal and is suggesting that Chinese tourists and students would be less inclined to go to Australia.

When you have a situation in which, unlike other state investors, the Chinese government apparently directly uses the economic leverage of its existing investment in Canada to further its political aims, we have a problem in terms of our sovereignty. I think that includes further investments or the review process of whether we should be transferring high-tech technologies with potential military applications to China.

The Chinese government has set up very many conditions to Canada, by implication or directly, to suggest that if we don't go along with what the Chinese government wants in pursuing its interests in Canada, we will lose the Chinese investment, which means threatening employment and prosperity in Canada. It's very dangerous to deal with them, frankly.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you for that.

I have another question.

You've also recommended that Canada end co-operation with China's United Front Work Department. Of course, this is the agency of the Communist Party of China.

Can you elaborate on what influence you believe this department has in the context of Chinese state-owned enterprises potentially investing in Canada?

12:10 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

The United Front Work Department of the Chinese Communist Party is designed to bring people from outside of the Chinese Communist Party into compliance with the goals and agenda of the party, both domestically in China and internationally, including in Canada. There's quite a sophisticated engagement with persons of Chinese origin, who may be menaced by the agents of the Chinese regime operating in Canada, some of whom may be diplomats, and also engagement with key Canadian policy-makers in terms of benefits or implied benefits if they support policies that are more in the interests of China than in the interests of Canada.

I do think that part of what you're saying is that our government has not responded sufficiently to the concerns expressed by the RCMP and CSIS with regard to the activities of agents of the Chinese state engaging in coercive or menacing activities or influence peddling of different types, and that's part of the whole thing. The Chinese government doesn't want that. I believe that we should investigate with much more vigour this matter of agents of the Chinese state operating in Canada and that the existing reports that have apparently been shelved by the government should be brought into implementation, because this is really a matter of protecting our Canadian sovereignty and democracy.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you.

I have another question here. The Investment Canada Act currently contains thresholds for triggering a review of a foreign entity acquiring a Canadian company, which is $428 million if the acquiring entity is a state-owned enterprise. If this enterprise value is below the threshold, there is no review. It's just notified. What triggers could Canada look at adding or amending in the Investment Canada Act to flag or potentially filter out some of these types of acquisitions, in your opinion?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Unfortunately, we don't have any time for that.

I just want to remind members that this card means there are 30 seconds remaining and this red one means there's no more time. We want to make sure that everyone gets their time slot, so I'm asking you to please respect the time limits that have been given to you, as agreed upon on February 18.

With that, we'll now move to Mr. Ehsassi. You have the floor for five minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to each of the witnesses for appearing before our committee.

I should say that a lot of the discussion I've heard today has been somewhat befuddling, because I see very little reference to the Investment Canada Act. Many of the issues that have been raised or flagged have essentially no bearing on the provisions of the Investment Canada Act.

Allow me to start off by asking Mr. Burton a question.

Mr. Burton, could you unpack your main or principal recommendation? As I understood it, you're saying that there should be a moratorium on all investments by state-owned enterprises. Am I correct in that?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

No, I mean state-owned enterprises from authoritarian states. I think in this context the only one that we have concern about at the time is the People's Republic of China.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

As you know full well, if we look at the legal framework that exists in numerous other countries—and I suppose it would only be fair that we look at our peer countries—are you aware of any country that is contemplating a ban on investment by state-owned enterprises?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

In terms of China, I think that currently there are studies by the governments, the parliaments, of the U.K., Australia and India, and by the Congress of the United States. They're doing studies comparable to what you're doing. I think it's still too soon to say what the consensus will be on this matter, but my guess would be that concern about Chinese predatory investments in Canada in the context of COVID-19 is something that other countries are looking at very closely.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Mr. Burton, you're essentially saying that there should just be a moratorium and we should just stop it. Do you know of any other G7 country or OECD member that is seriously considering a complete ban on investments by state-owned enterprises?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

From China, yes, not from other countries.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Would you clarify for us what country is seriously considering it?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

The United States yesterday made an announcement. Congress is considering such a thing. Also, there are currently parliamentary hearings in Australia, India and the U.K. on this question.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Yes, but each one is considering how to strengthen their system. They're not proposing a complete ban on investments. With your moratorium, Mr. Burton, would you see any unintended consequences if we completely ban investments?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

We're looking at a temporary moratorium, pending further review by yourselves. I'm not suggesting that this would be a permanent measure, but I think the study that has been ordered to look into this possibility is appropriate, recognizing that we're in a particular situation with COVID-19. Certainly one of the factors in the motion was to consider a temporary moratorium, and I support it.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

I could understand a temporary moratorium with respect to certain sectors, which is what I've been hearing from other capitals, but generally speaking, I haven't heard anyone speak of an outright ban.

Mr. Gagnon, if I could go to you now, I understand that you're mostly talking about provincial measures that can be harnessed and utilized. Could you tell us what the relevance of those provincial measures are to the Investment Canada Act? In other words, is there any provision in the Investment Canada Act that has impeded the ability of provincial regulators to do the right thing?

12:15 p.m.

Director, Mouvement d’éducation et de défense des actionnaires

Willie Gagnon

I'm not necessarily talking about provincial measures. The measures we want to advance should be applied at both the provincial and federal levels.

You know that there's a provincial law, but also a federal law on business corporations. When we look at all the businesses in Quebec and throughout Canada, we see that some are registered under the federal system and others under the provincial system.

In order to have some measures apply to all businesses, we need to amend both federal and provincial legislation.