Industry Committee on Feb. 24th, 2020

[Steve Verheul]

No, it's not at this point.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

Building on where I was going last time, I know much of the testimony we've heard at this committee and elsewhere from organizations that represent the production of tangible goods has been that the provisions in this agreement represent a victory for the export of tangible goods.

Given the significant concessions on data and IP in chapter 19, and especially since, again, to reemphasize the point that the European Union has declined to entrench similar provisions in their trade agreement, and given the newness of the field, I am wondering if we conceded on these interests in order to get clarity on issues that have more political tangibility, like the export of manufactured goods.

[Steve Verheul]

No, we did not look at those kinds of trade-offs. I would take exception to your characterization that those were necessarily concessions on our part when it comes to data. We do have a policy. This is not the first agreement where we've addressed those kinds of issues.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So, you have a policy.

The last panel said there was no analysis. I asked, in the absence of a national data strategy, what was guiding the discussions. But you said you have a policy on this. Can you table that? What I'm trying to get at is this. What strategy did you use to guide your decisions on the ownership of data—essentially the rights of data creators in Canada—especially with respect to the impact of that on the Canadian economy over the last 10 years?

[Steve Verheul]

I don't think there's a country in the world that negotiates free trade agreements that has detailed analysis that they release publicly on these kinds of things.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay, let's talk about strategy and policy. You just said you have a policy on this—what strategy or policy? What was this tying back to? How are the concessions that were made—or however you want to characterize chapter 19—tied to the long-term economic growth of the data economy of Canada over the next 10 years, given that this policy is significantly different from the position that the EU has taken on entrenching those provisions in their trade agreements?

[Steve Verheul]

The EU does take a different approach on this; there's no question about that. We have taken a different approach, both in this agreement and, to some extent, in the trans-Pacific partnership.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Why?

[Steve Verheul]

This came about largely as a result of consultations with industry, the private sector—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Which industry groups?

[Steve Verheul]

—provinces and territories. That's how we formulated our positions, along with our own analysis of how we should be conducting this—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

You've said there was no analysis done, that you didn't have time to do an analysis, but your own analysis was completed. I'm just a little confused on this.

[Steve Verheul]

Perhaps there are two different senses of analysis. We are always doing analysis on every negotiating position we put forward, but it's not a formal kind of analysis that we set out on paper and put in some kind of public statement. This is based on the expertise that we have among our negotiators. We establish it from that, in conjunction with consultations with the private sector.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What sort of timeline or horizon did you negotiate to in the economic analysis? Were you looking at the current state or a 10-year period in assessing the impact of this agreement on GDP?

[Steve Verheul]

We always look at the long-term implications of anything we negotiate. We don't look at the status quo today; we look at what's likely to develop in the future.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

With regard to the impact that chapter 19 would have on the data economy, the rights of data creators and the valuation of data as an intangible asset in Canada, what sort of analysis was done on potential economic growth under the provisions as negotiated in chapter 19?

[Steve Verheul]

Obviously, there are some different views in the private sector about these issues. We took a look at those, obviously. We relied, again, on the expertise we have.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Who from Canadian industry argued in favour of those provisions in chapter 19?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

You have 10 seconds left.

[Steve Verheul]

Well, we certainly had stakeholders.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Would you be able to table that with us?

[Steve Verheul]

There are very diverse views among stakeholders on those issues.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Who argued in favour of it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, that is your time, Mrs. Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.