Evidence of meeting #12 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bell.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
I'm sorry. I didn't hear the interpretation for the last part of that question. From what I did gather—
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
What do you recommend to bridge the gap between the rates and the 5G technology available in urban areas and the lack of Internet connectivity in rural areas?
12:40 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
It's interesting that you should say that because it gives me a chance to bring up something that I had in mind. In recent months, we've heard Mr. Trudeau talk about how the Internet is a necessity, not a luxury, and that it's important that all Canadians have access to the Internet. I notice that when he talks about that, he mainly seems to be talking in terms of access to broadband for remote communities. I think Mr. Philipp just talked a fair bit about that.
We at ACORN are concerned with lack of access due to affordability. I would say that when I see ads on my digital TV for 5G, I always think to myself that we're getting ahead of ourselves as a society to provide the best service possible for those who have money. If as a society we believe that everyone ought to be connected and ought to benefit from what the Internet has to offer, I think that should be the priority.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you.
I gave you a bit more time, Mr. Lemire, as a result of the interpretation issues.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
You're welcome.
Our next round of questions goes to MP Masse.
You have the floor for six minutes.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
I have no apology to make to Bell with regard to any emotion. I remember one of my first committee days here when the Bell CEO—Michael Sabia at that time—was an obstacle for pay equity for women in the union fighting to get the remuneration that was awarded to them, with its taking many, many years longer than it should have. It was very disappointing. There also were the deferral accounts, where Bell overcharged by far more any other provider, with almost up to $1 billion that had to be remitted to Canadians, including persons with disabilities. It fought by itself; as the rest of industry fell in line to rebate Canadians, Bell continued that type of behaviour for a long period of time.
I really am not surprised by what we heard here with regard to its culture of employment and how it wants to continue to receive a lot of different government programs and services—which is fine; they're there for anybody out there. However, at the same time, the mere threat of the CRTC to them would actually disable their commitment to Canadians for rural and remote in the future, and that is something that's alarming and needs to be taken into context.
Mr. Noyes, you bring up a really good point in being here. It's people in rural and remote areas that haven't even connected quite a bit, but it's even people who are getting disconnected in the cities because of the affordability issue. One thing that we, as New Democrats, proposed is to use the spectrum auction to guarantee low-cost services from those who bid at the spectrum auction. The spectrum auction has netted Canada's coffers around $22 billion in the last 20 years. That money has not been all sent back into service provision.
Is that something that you think ACORN would support: having the next spectrum auction with the inclusion, similar to a request for proposals, that we actually make sure there are going to be some low-cost provisions from those that are going to use the public airwaves? That is the spectrum auction. Again, that is a public asset. I'm wondering whether ACORN has a position on that.
12:45 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
I'm not speaking officially as an officer of ACORN. I'm speaking just as a member. Still, what you have just said strikes me as a very sensible way to proceed. Anything that might provide some financial resources for the government to put into low-cost Internet for low-income Canadians would be a good thing.
I've been told that the government can't do much about what we're asking for because it's up to the CRTC to authorize these things. Our answer to that is the connecting families program, which does exist but, unfortunately, is voluntary. Not all the telecommunications companies are participating.
As far as your question goes, Mr. Masse, I think ACORN would be very supportive of what you're suggesting.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I have your position on my screen here, from ACORN, and I do not believe there is nothing we can do. We do not have to leave that to the CRTC, and, in fact, the CRTC could also be directed, which it has been in the past, to examine certain things. I think ACORN's request is actually very reasonable. I think, again, with the spectrum auction coming up, we will have a chance to define the terms used in provisions of the spectrum auction, including qualifiers for its use, so I think that will provide an opportunity.
Now, I want to ask questions to you, Mr. Noyes, if I have time. In your experience with lack of availability, have you found that it's more seniors, perhaps, or is it other people or demographics, such as persons with disabilities, who are experiencing greater access problems? We know that where I come from, new Canadians right now are faced with a barrier and a digital divide and don't have the devices for school right now. So, they've been provided some of those things. Is there a particular target population that you're more worried about or a special red flag?
12:45 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
I personally know a few seniors who aren't connected, partly because they're not tech savvy but also because of the cost. I know one particular senior who managed to come up with enough money for a Bell package, which made him take a TV service and phone service along with the Internet, and as far as I know, he still hasn't figured out how to use the Internet. That's a whole other issue.
I would say it's both seniors and disabled people. I might have run over it too quickly, but many disabled people in Ontario are on the Ontario disability support program, ODSP. That currently is $1,169 a month. As I said about myself in particular, I'm dreaming that maybe the slight increase I'll get to my income when I switch to over-65 type of benefits—which would be CPP, OAS and GIS—might make it possible for me to afford something like National Capital FreeNet, but I—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Wait one moment, Mr. Noyes.
Mr. Lemire, is there an interpretation issue?
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Unfortunately, we can no longer hear the interpretation. Mr. Noyes is a particularly compelling witness, so it's a shame that we can't hear his remarks in French.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Okay. I've paused the clock, and I'm just going to double-check whether the translation is now working.
12:50 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
I apologize for my French being too rusty to reply in French. Sorry.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
No problem. I just wanted to double-check that the translation is working. I'm getting the signal from my colleague that it is. Could you please continue? Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Member, ACORN Canada
Yes. I forget where I was, to be honest.
I was being asked about particular population groups that might be very much in need. I was talking about my personal situation, in which a slight increase in my income might make it possible for me to hook up with something called National Capital FreeNet, which is available only in this area. I understand it runs about $45 or $50 a month, and of course, if I got that service and if our proposal for a $50 Canadian broadband benefit was taken up, I would get $50 back on whatever the cost is.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
And that would also be if ODSP wasn't clawed back by the government either.
I know we're out of time here, Madam Chair, but I want to make the point that sometimes federal programs are clawed back by the Province of Ontario.
Thank you, Mr. Noyes.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you very much. That ends our first round.
We will start the second round. We are short on time, so I'm going to ask folks to please be mindful of the cards. I'd like to get at least one round in for each of the parties so that everyone has a chance to speak.
With that, I will start with MP Nater.
You have the floor for five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just say at the outset that my Internet is causing me problems right now—that's a bit of irony—so if I disappear, perhaps one of my colleagues will use the remainder of my time.
I'll start with Mr. Philipp. Thank you for the presentation and for your testimony. It's been very interesting. I want to start with something you mentioned about capacity in space and the need for the government to invest in that and increase capacity in there. What is needed from the government, in terms of increasing that capacity in space to provide Internet by satellite?
12:50 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, SSi Canada
That's a good question. The backbone problem is going to eventually resolve itself. Whether it be SpaceX in a year, Telesat in two or three, or medium-earth orbit platforms from our partners at SES, the backbone capacity problem will never be resolved. We're going to continue to drive capacity through the roof. It will get easier and cheaper in the north. What we need now in rural Canada is to solve the training, the human resources, the job creation and the open gateway infrastructure, right?
If we build open gateways, meaning full location facilities and towers, and we put in fibre to the homes in those markets that make sense, put in the antennas we need for the last mile distribution and allow all competitors into that gateway, we could even structurally separate them like we do with an airport in a community. Rural Canada does not need a separate airport for every carrier. We need one airport for the community that all carriers share. It's the most effective way to do it.
Also, in space, we need a longer-term commitment to purchase capacity, because what happens is that we go through four-year beauty cycles, beauty contests, right? Every four years, when there's a change in government, there's a new funding program and a new strategy for broadband, which means that competitors like us, Northwestel and Bell are competing on a four-year program. Investing in the long term is difficult with a four-year program, and for satellite service providers, investing in capacity is very difficult. They're investing $100 million to $200 million in a platform with a 15-year life and with no financial commitment.
The challenge is to look at this holistically. The backbone solutions are coming and are getting cheaper. Competition on the backbone, whether it be fibre, SpaceX, Telesat or MEO from SES, is going to drive that price down.
What we need in rural Canada today is different from urban centres. In urban centres, yes, everybody can afford to build their own last mile and their own open gateways, their own gateways and their own towers, and they protect them fiercely. They don't want to share them. In rural Canada, you can't have that. You can't have five towers popping up in a community of 600 people. It's going to look goofy. It's not going to make sense.
We have this in Nunavut now. When we put in our building and Northwestel is across town, how do we pair with them? How do we share data with them? Well, somebody has to run fibre to the other guy. We want to, and they don't want any part of that, because they'd rather have our customers have to go all the way south by satellite and all the way back. This is not something I'm making up. This is something that is historically proven with fact and with programs.
We need open gateways in rural Canada. Competition will come, whether it be on the backbone or on the last mile. That open gateway is the barrier, the moat, to little companies like ours, and we're not so little anymore. We're 100 people spread across the country, but we started as one person in a little town. Luckily, we had the funding to build the infrastructure that we're building, but we firmly believe in open gateways and competition in the marketplace—any marketplace.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you for that. That was very interesting. If you're okay with it, I may follow up with you offline with a couple of questions stemming from your testimony that I don't think we'll have time to go into at this point.
I want to touch a bit on the Connect to Innovate, CTI, program. It's a program that, as I understand from your testimony, you were optimistic about in February 2018. I'm curious to know if you were successful with the Connect to Innovate program and to hear any thoughts you have on that program.
12:55 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, SSi Canada
This is where my better sense tells me that I should pass this one over to Dean, because my filter might have me say things that I don't want to.
Dean, on Connect to Innovate in 2018, what do you think? Yellow card....
12:55 p.m.
Chief Development Officer, SSi Canada
Connect to Innovate as a program was very well designed. In terms of implementation, it has been not so effective. In the case of Nunavut, where we were very excited—as Jeff was just talking about—open gateways, open backbones, that was where the funding was supposed to go. There's no retail price regulation under the Connect to Innovate program. All the regulations are supposed to go on an open backbone.
We have been unable to get access to Northwestel, which won the money for the open gateways, the open backbone, in any effective manner. Thank God we have SES as a new partner to bring in net new capacity, which is desperately needed, well beyond what Northwestel is offering—or not offering—in accordance with the program requirements. There's a lot to build from CTI.
I apologize, Madam Chair. We'd love to speak much more about that.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you.
What I could suggest is that if you have additional information you'd like to share with the committee, you're more than welcome to submit a brief to the clerk, and that can be circulated. If you feel that you didn't have enough time to answer some questions, feel free to do so.