Industry Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

Although consultation is always a good idea, in this emergency, I'm a little bit worried that we're only consulting at this point.

As a former member of the board of a firefighting service, I like the firefighting analogy. In the situation we're in now it seems odd to me that we know we're going to need further capacity. We know we need to build a fire hall even if we don't know exactly where the fire is going to be. I'm concerned that we're not already launched on that path.

I want to direct this to our McMaster representatives.

I think what I heard from you today is that with an investment by the federal government we could be much farther down the path of being ready for either variants or another kind of pandemic that comes at us.

Dr. Mossman.

[Dr. Karen Mossman]

Thanks very much for that.

What we've been really focusing on at McMaster, and this is in collaboration with colleagues across the country, is really pulling together all of the current expertise that we have, the investments that have been made, and really bringing everyone together. That's why we called it Global Nexus, so that we have social scientists talking to policy-makers, talking to infectious disease experts, and talking to supply management. This way we not only learn from this pandemic but also ensure that we are using the resources and can identify what new resources we need to collectively make sure we are prepared for the inevitable next pandemic.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I believe I am out of time.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, MP Garrison.

We will now begin another round.

Mr. Généreux, we go to you for five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Nemer, I'd like to start with you.

In the summer, when the COVID-19 Vaccine Task Force was making recommendations to the government, what were you projecting or forecasting? At this point in the pandemic, where were you predicting we would be, in other words, in late February or early March? Did you expect that Canada would rank 58th in the world for vaccine doses administered per capita, or did you think it would be higher on the list?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

To be perfectly frank, I didn't even think we would have vaccines in January 2021. That was the most optimistic scenario. The fact that we do have them is absolutely wonderful.

The first vaccines that became available were based on a new platform and a fairly complex production process. As I said, scaling up mass production is not just a matter of adding a bit more water to a bigger boiler, so it was to be expected that we would encounter shortages and hiccups along the way.

We may not be where we'd hoped at this point, but as you know, this is a marathon. What matters is not where you start, but where you finish. I have no doubt that the pace and scale of vaccination will pick up significantly in the coming months. I sincerely hope so, anyway.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Had we made different decisions, would we have gotten different results? Had we decided to produce vaccines here, as England did, would we have a Canadian-made vaccine right now?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

As far as I know, the most advanced Canadian vaccine is Medicago's. It's too bad the company representatives aren't here anymore. As you know, Medicago hasn't completed its phase three trials, so the vaccine still can't be produced in Canada. The company received support to develop a vaccine in Canada, but it will be years before doses are produced in Canada.

Yes, starting work on vaccine production is crucial, but a vaccine isn't going to be ready in a few months. It takes a long time to build the ecosystem necessary for domestic production. I'm not saying we should wait, far from it, but I think this is where we would have been anyways.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Kobinger, I gather that you were on the task force but stepped down because you felt it lacked transparency. Is that correct?

[Dr. Gary Kobinger]

Yes, that's correct. In particular, there were conflicts of interest.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You failed to mention earlier that members of the task force also owned shares in the drug companies whose vaccines were selected. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that members of the task force were in a potential conflict of interest.

[Dr. Gary Kobinger]

That's my understanding as well.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Is that why you resigned from the task force in protest?

[Dr. Gary Kobinger]

It wasn't necessarily in protest of that. Mostly, I didn't want to be associated with a group that had what I would call underlying problems.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

What underlying problems did you identify with the task force?

[Dr. Gary Kobinger]

The lack of transparency was one.

As I said, the task force was formed and became public knowledge somewhat by accident. After that, the members did not want to be identified publicly on a website. Some seemed to be under the impression that, because they were volunteering their time, nothing else mattered. That's not how it worked on any advisory committee I've ever been on. Not only do members have to volunteer their time, but they also have to disclose any conflict of interest. Anyone can have a conflict of interest, but there has to be someone, ideally an independent committee, that determines whether members can still participate despite their conflict of interest because it will not influence their judgment. When members' names are made public, everything is clear and transparent.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I have to tell you that there are people who lose their jobs for a lot less than that.

Some countries made the decision to produce a vaccine themselves. We saw near-totalitarian regimes adopt very different models. Russia, for instance, is manufacturing and selling its Sputnik V vaccine to people around the world. It was never discussed in Canada. Now there is talk of buying vaccines manufactured in India.

I heard that some of those vaccines will not be approved or will no longer be approved in South Africa and even France now. I believe they're trying to get rid of the doses they have left.

What is your take on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Généreux, you're out of time.

Mr. Ehsassi, you may go ahead.

You have five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will return to Dr. Nemer.

Dr. Nemer, thank you for putting everything in context for us today. You rightly pointed out that we shouldn't be as concerned with the starting line as the end line of vaccination in this country. You also confirmed that, in your professional opinion, every Canadian who would like to be vaccinated will be vaccinated by the end of September.

Could you tell us what the basis for your optimism is?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

The basis for my optimism is that we're seeing the issues of scale-up being worked out with the mRNA vaccine supplies that we have purchased. We have also purchased other vaccines, notably two that are adenovirus based: AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson, whose results are excellent and, as has been mentioned, have been approved in other countries, at least in the case of AstraZeneca. Johnson & Johnson is being studied both in Canada and the U.S. for approval. Adenovirus is a much easier production and easier to scale up. We shouldn't expect a lot of hiccups there. There will be additional doses. Last but not least is the Novavax, which is the protein subunit that has also shown great results. The production should be easier.

We should be getting three additional vaccines in the coming months for Canada. Already, based only on the RNA vaccines, we have enough doses to vaccinate people who want to be vaccinated by September. That's the basis of my optimism.

I do have to mention, though, that we do need to have logistics in place to achieve all this.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Now you've set the record straight in terms of supplies of vaccines, but there are also the logistics and the administration of those vaccines. Yesterday the residents of Ontario learned that their province is behind the other provinces in rolling out vaccinations. I take note of the fact that two weeks ago you publicly expressed concerns about how the provinces had essentially stockpiled rapid testing and that they were gathering dust.

Do you have the same concerns with respect to the rollout? How do we know that all the provinces, including Ontario, are ready to administer at an expeditious pace?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I'm not privy to the logistical details in the provinces.

I will say that in terms of the difference between the rapid tests and the vaccines, with the rapid test there was a reluctance to use existing tests that did not require other supplies than the tests themselves. In the case of vaccines, of course you have to set up the places where people can be vaccinated. There's the entire logistics for people to arrive to receive the vaccine, the vaccines to be available and so on, and also the needles. We heard a lot about all these things.

I think that when the different jurisdictions provide the details of their logistics is when we're able to tell whether things are going to go well or not. I don't have any other insight into it.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Given all the information we've obtained, in the event a province such as Ontario falls behind the other provinces and other jurisdictions, what would you recommend the federal government do to make sure the rollout happens as quickly as possible in places such as Ontario?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I think vaccinations for Canadians are a national issue. I think it's really important that we all help each other. If provinces need support, depending on what, if it's health care workers or data systems or other things, I think we should be able to provide this help and support. I think we showed in the past with PPE and so on that we're able to help each other.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.