Industry Committee on March 11th, 2021

[Hugo Brouillard]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Today, we have access to the provincial government through organizations such as Aéro Montréal and Montréal International. Unfortunately, as a representative of a tier 1 supplier, I don't know who in the federal government to reach out to when necessary, at least not as far as the Airbus group is concerned.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

When you deal with the government, is it a lengthy process?

My understanding is that you don't have a direct line.

[Hugo Brouillard]

That's correct. Take the Canada emergency wage subsidy, for example. There is an issue with Stelia Aerospace St-Laurent related to the consolidation. We represent a new subsidiary, and a technical interpretation of the wage subsidy program was made in September 2020. Unfortunately, Stelia Aerospace St-Laurent is now being penalized more than $6 million because, at the time, we made choices based on another interpretation of the program.

Presently, we are reaching out to various stakeholders in an attempt to resolve the issue. We are even going through the provincial government to communicate with the federal government. That is not normal.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

When you say you have to go through the provincial government to communicate with the federal government, it's quite telling. It certainly paints a vivid picture.

Now I'm going to turn to Mr. Gagné.

Mr. Gagné, thank you for your kind words about the Bloc Québécois, which pushed the committee to take up the study. You ran out of time for your presentation, so I'd like to give you an opportunity to finish what you were saying. I imagine you have some concrete and specific ideas when it comes to the need for a clear plan.

[Renaud Gagné]

In Quebec, we are working actively with Aéro Montréal. Some 25,000 out of 60,000 jobs will have to be replaced in the next decade. We saw what happened in 2008: it took nearly six years to restore the level of employment, in 2019, before the pandemic. Investing in technical schools to train the workers of tomorrow is fundamental.

Every country in the world is supporting its aerospace industry. Unfortunately, our industry needs help, especially in Quebec, where I work, but also in Canada. The industry employs 60,000 people. We can access the resources to build a plane within a 30-kilometre radius. The engineering firms and necessary facilities are all in place. Without solid programs and investments, the industry won't be there to meet the demand of tomorrow.

Our industry has already fallen in the world rankings, so investment is needed to keep the industry from losing its current standing in the world. Whether it's Bombardier's C Series or Global 7500 aircraft, we have the expertise here. CAE's capacity attests to that: the company can do a lot more, including the famous air purifiers it will be installing in its simulators. It's a fairly simple technology that reproduces the sun's effects in the environment. We are talking about 55,000 units. If the same technology could be used everywhere, we could create thousands of jobs in Quebec and Canada. People just need to know about the technology and its ability to fight things like COVID-19 in workplaces, on airplanes and in other modes of transportation.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You are saying there is a necessity to act. Whenever the subject of helping the aerospace industry comes up, people's first reaction is to say, “Here we go again, having to bail them out.” Of course, the industry needs direct and immediate help in the short term, but most of the witnesses we have heard from also talked about the need for long-term help. Building a policy is about more than just providing direct assistance; it's about creating a green framework, and increasing support for research and development as well as skills training.

Is that an accurate summary, or have I gotten it wrong?

[Renaud Gagné]

You are absolutely right. If we want to be at the forefront of technology and knowledge, we have to support training programs. For us, of course, research and development is crucial—it's everything.

If we want to be pioneers, if we want to build hydrogen-powered engines or other technologies with Pratt & Whitney Canada, support for research and development is a must. The existing program is unclear; we need clarity around what is available and how to use it.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

There is a clarity problem, then. What you're saying is that, when you look at the terms and conditions of the program, you can't tell what applies to you, as a member of the industry.

Do I have that right?

[Renaud Gagné]

Yes. When we talk to Aéro Montréal or industry members—the major companies belong to various organizations—they tell us about the research and development program. Since the criteria aren't clear enough for us to take advantage of the program, we are waiting for clarification.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That's great. I understand. No need to explain further.

Madam Chair, I just saw the yellow card. Can you tell me how much time I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

You have 15 seconds left.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Gagné, 15 seconds isn't even enough time to set up a question, so I will leave it there. Thank you.

[Renaud Gagné]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Masse.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses here today.

I will start with Unifor.

With regard to the De Havilland and the Bombardier projects in the greater Toronto area, this trained and value-added manufacturing workforce, once dissipated, will be hard to bring back. What plans have been laid out to either have some domestic procurement or have some type of production?

One thing that most concerns Canadians is the question of if we provide supports, what we get in return. Some companies have taken money, some of which has gone offshore. Some of it has gone to bonuses and executive salaries and hasn't been put toward working or procurement products that keep Canadians working.

If we keep them working, then they're off employment insurance and CERB and other things. Perhaps Unifor can provide some of the solutions that they are projecting to do the recovery, especially since, as has been noted, the Dash 8 is a regional carrier. It was a political decision to keep regional airlines connected, and perhaps modern air fleets could actually be part of the solution to keep both things going.

[Jerry Dias]

I have to admit it was a lot easier when Air Canada was owned by the federal government. The procurement discussions and decisions were a lot easier.

I've spent a lot of time defending the government's contributions to the aerospace industry. Why? It's a pretty simple math equation to me. For every dollar that the government invests in the aerospace industry, they get $100 back. With those types of odds, anybody would invest.

It's the types of jobs that are created and the wages that are pumped back into the economy. Of course, it's about the taxes that are paid by the corporations, as well. The payback is significant. That's why the major governments around the world invest in their aerospace industry.

I'm concerned about De Havilland Aircraft, about Bombardier and about Downsview. I know right now that Bombardier is working with the federal and provincial governments to hopefully break ground shortly at Pearson. I know that Bombardier has requested some assistance through the federal government's strategic innovation fund.

The bottom line is that these are skills you just can't replace. We do the final assembly of the Global Express, which is the jewel of the Bombardier fleet. That shovel needs to get in the ground quickly, because post-pandemic, we're going to need a strong industry to put people back to work.

It's the same with the Dash 8. It's been a great program. I personally worked on it. I'm a sheet metal worker by trade with De Havilland Aircraft, and I am absolutely surprised and disillusioned that this plant will be shut down in May.

I would suggest that government procurement, through border and post patrol, might be a way to have some orders in the book to keep that plant going in the short term.

Thank you for your questions.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

To follow up on the consequences, you've been able to negotiate benefits for drug coverage, pensions and other training on health and safety. All of those things will be lost.

This is why we put forth the pharmacare motion, because most Canadians don't enjoy some of those things. If those members lose their jobs, that will mean an extra burden on the backs of Canadians, because they will have to go to the general public system after being punted from their jobs and having no procurement strategy in place.

[Jerry Dias]

There's no question that these are highly skilled, well-paid, working-class jobs that provide employee benefits at the top of the food chain. They're consistent with the top manufacturing jobs in this country and the most technical jobs in this country. The wages and benefits reflect the contribution and the type of industry they're in. That's why we can ill afford to lose these jobs.

I think about my members who work at MacDonald, Dettwiler & Associates and make satellites and build the Canadarm for the space shuttle. I can walk right through it all.

This industry is important to this country. It adds $25 billion a year to the GDP and provides over 200,000 direct and indirect jobs. You have to ask yourself whether we are better off as a nation without these jobs and without this technology. Of course, the answer is no.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

There's no doubt. Manufacturing is not dead or over; it's actually just shifted, most of it outside of this country, for unfortunate reasons.

I want to move quickly to WestJet.

There was mention of the pilot project in Calgary. There was a land border one, too. What probably did them in was politicians travelling to Mexico and other parts of the United States to go on vacation. It's the reason you probably have that, and it's ironic because it was a partnership between the federal government and Alberta's Conservative government.

That being said, have you refunded your non-Canadian travellers, WestJet customers in Europe and other places? Did you refund those from outside of Canada?

[Andy Gibbons]

We sure have complied with that.

I'm glad you brought up refunds, because we are the only airline in Canada progressively and proactively refunding guests whose flights we cancelled. This is the European, EU and U.S. standard, which you mentioned, Mr. Masse.

Yes, we have been very proactive and progressive on that issue and proud to be so.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that.

What were the reasons for that? You weren't forced by the government to do that. How does that make you different from or more vulnerable than other air carriers, if you've actually had those expenditures?

[Andy Gibbons]

That's a good question. Everything's been a balance.

One of the unfortunate and unintended consequences of our refund decision is its impact on our travel agent and travel adviser partners. It's been a series of interconnected webs and difficult balancing decisions.

You asked why. I think it was in our statement on October 24. We did it because it's the right thing to do. As soon as we had the opportunity to do that, we made the decision. I appreciate your noting it.

Doing the right thing for Canadians is not something the government has to extract from us. I think that's an important principle and that's what guides us when it comes to some of these decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, Mr. Masse, you're out of time on that one.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

We'll start our second round of questions.

The first round goes to Mr. Généreux.

We now go to Mr. Généreux for five minutes.