Industry Committee on Jan. 31st, 2024

[Leah Lawrence]

Yes, I believe he told the committee that he thought it didn't apply to him because they had applied before he became the CEO.

[The Acting Chair, NDP, Brian Masse]

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, that's your time.

I know the clock in the corner over there is a little fast, but you will have your full five minutes, Mr. Sorbara, to take the committee home.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ms. Lawrence, to the committee.

I'd like to start off with just a few things that I have written down here.

You said that during your tenure, employees would recuse themselves or they would discuss conflicts at the beginning of each meeting.

[Leah Lawrence]

It was directors, sir, not employees.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I'm sorry. It was directors, yes.

Directors would recuse themselves or discuss conflicts at the beginning of each meeting.

You can correct me if I get details wrong.

[Leah Lawrence]

I apologize.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

No, no, please.

Also, you acknowledged that the RCGT report clearly said that this did not happen.

Can you expand on that point or the thought that I put out there?

[Leah Lawrence]

Is the question whether they actually recused themselves?

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Why didn't they recuse themselves, and why does the report say that it did not happen if you indicated that it was supposed to happen at the beginning of each meeting?

[Leah Lawrence]

Yes.

I believe this was filed with the committee by SDTC in terms of response to the RCGT report. They did recuse themselves. They did leave the meetings. What happened is that the minutes didn't properly reflect that.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

In your role as CEO during those situations, you would have raised these issues at board meetings if there was a conflict, if the individuals should be leaving.

[Leah Lawrence]

They did leave. That's what happened.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Okay.

Here's my next question.

I sat on the ethics committee in a prior Parliament; I do not in this session. When you testified at the ethics committee, the opposition members referred to the actions taken by you while CEO as “criminality”, “fraud” and “forgery on the Canadian taxpayer.” They went on to say, “This warrants a police investigation.” How do you respond to such accusations from the opposition members?

I've read your bio. You were the CEO for seven years, if the dates in front of me are correct. You have served on past boards and with chairs. You have a level of competence that I would indicate as such.

How would you respond to those accusations from the Conservative MPs?

[Leah Lawrence]

They are factually untrue. That's one of the reasons I wanted to come back here today: to be able to answer questions like yours.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you for stating that very concisely.

In your commentary today—and I'm not sure if it was in your opening statement or in response to members' questioning—you indicated that you felt strongly about the potential conflict, or the conflict, in terms of Ms. Verschuren but that there was no email sent. You didn't write this down or put it in a letter or a memo or anything to that extent. In hindsight, do you think that you should have done that, or am I missing something in your testimony and you can correct me?

That struck me, and I perked up when you indicated that.

[Leah Lawrence]

I guess I would say, sir, that papering myself to protect myself is not a practice that I usually think is a priority. What I try to do is give fearless advice, and I hope it would be followed.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Okay.

The role of an individual in being president and CEO of any organization is one of high responsibility. I would say that the bar is very high in terms of disclosing conflicts, raising red flags and basically protecting the organization's ability to competently undertake investments, in this case, SDTC, and so forth. As my colleague beside me has said, there's a fiduciary responsibility that you have as CEO and as any CEO would have.

At that time that you have indicated that you may not have written down your thoughts about what was going on, should you not have written down your thoughts and emailed them or indicated them in a memo, saying that you may not agree with this or that this potential conflict existed?

This happens on a daily basis. Minutes are taken. Notes are taken. People have conversations all the time, of course, but don't you think that this warranted that level?

[Leah Lawrence]

I asked and advised Ms. Verschuren to go to the Ethics Commissioner. I told Mr. Noseworthy there was a significant concern. My employee in the government relations lead told the minister's office.

Yes, I expressed concern, and I did it at multiple levels. That's my duty, and that's what I did.

When the minister then decides to not accept that advice, I have to accept that too.

[The Acting Chair, NDP, Brian Masse]

With that, colleagues, we are out of time.

I want to thank our witness, Ms. Lawrence. I also thank her for waiting the extra time to accommodate the committee's changed schedule.

I want to thank the interpreters, the clerk and the analysts for putting up with me at the top of the table here.

I wish everyone a safe and good night.