Evidence of meeting #117 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was child.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Schaan  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 117 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Furthermore, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C‑27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

I would like to welcome our witnesses today and thank you all for being here.

From the Department of Industry, we have Mark Schaan, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector; Samir Chhabra, Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch; and Runa Angus, Senior Director, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector. Thanks to all three of you for being with us again.

If memory serves, Mr. Turnbull had the floor at the end of our last meeting. And if I'm not mistaken, he was preparing to move a subamendment.

Mr. Turnbull.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you, Chair.

It's good to be back, colleagues.

Thanks to the officials for being here. I know you'll spend some time with us over the next couple of months. We look forward to working with you and getting to know you better.

I had asked the officials numerous questions to set the stage for introducing a subamendment that, at least we think, is a bit of a compromise on the language and provides further clarity. It's taking out some language, and it's based on some arguments that were made last time. Hopefully, those clarifications were helpful for committee members.

This was drafted by my colleague Iqwinder, who is here. I am introducing it today because he was absent last time and I intended to do it then. I want to thank my colleague Mr. Gaheer for his work on this.

The subamendment is that CPC-1, which proposes to amend clause 2 of Bill C-27 by adding a preamble after line 7 on page 3, be amended as follows:

(a) replacing “Whereas Parliament recognizes the importance of the privacy and data protection principles contained in various international instruments;” with the following:

“Whereas Parliament recognizes the importance of privacy and data protection;”

(b) replacing “Whereas the processing of personal information and data should respect minors' privacy and their best interests;” with the following:

“Whereas minors actively take part in the digital and data-driven economy and their personal information is worthy of stronger protection given their varying levels of capacity to understand how it is used by organizations and the potential long-term implications of such use;”

(c) deleting the following:

“Whereas the design, development and deployment of artificial intelligence systems across provincial and international borders should be consistent with national and international standards to protect individuals from potential harm;”

(d) replacing “Whereas Parliament recognizes that artificial intelligence systems and other emerging technologies should uphold Canadian norms and values in line with the principles of international human rights law;” with the following:

“Whereas Parliament recognizes that emerging technologies should uphold Canadian norms and values in line with the principles of international human rights law;”

Thank you, Chair.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

I believe colleagues all have a written copy of the subamendment, reference number 12991258, by Mr. Gaheer, moved by Mr. Turnbull.

We'll now open debate on the subamendment.

Mr. Vis.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our officials for being here today.

I'll start with my notes. In the last meeting, I did introduce Conservative amendment CPC-1, which would amend the preamble to include “fundamental right to privacy” and include text that would state, “the processing of personal information and data should respect minors’ privacy and their best interests”.

This subamendment clearly deletes the “best interests” clause. I will note in good faith that later on in the amendment process, there is universal agreement on the fundamental right to privacy. My real concern here is the second phrase that's being deleted: “respect minors’ privacy and their best interests”.

I put forward this amendment because it was one of the key recommendations tabled by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. In the Office of the Privacy Commissioner's submission, they recommended the following, in addition to putting in “fundamental right to privacy”, which I think there's unanimous agreement on at this committee:

The preamble should also reflect the importance of protecting children and minors. Jurisdictions around the world have recognized that children and minors may be impacted by technologies differently than adults, be at greater risk of being affected by privacy-related issues, and therefore require special protections.

The Office of the Privacy Commissioner also said:

Updating the preamble in such a manner would encourage organizations to build privacy for children into products and services, from the start and by design. Since Canada’s privacy laws were designed to be technology neutral, this would help ensure that the best interests of children will be considered for new and emerging technologies, and for future uses of data.

It went on:

...adding the proposed language to the section that frames the legislation’s intent would help ensure that the best interests of children and minors are prioritized and consistently considered across all the related [bills].

I believe the law should recognize the rights of the child and the right to be a child. Taking into consideration the push-back on this language from the government—and some of the comments made by you, Mr. Schaan, at our last committee meeting—I hosted a meeting with the Privacy Commissioner yesterday to ask him to further emphasize the importance of including this language in Bill C-27. I will note that Mr. Masse joined me at that meeting. In having this important meeting, the commissioner gave some key insights as to why it is crucial to keep the “best interests of the child” language within the preamble.

Mr. Schaan, at the last committee meeting, we heard that the term “best interests of the child” was a subjective construct. After speaking with the leading experts in this field, I have to say that I don't agree with your interpretation and the way you phrased that term.

Can you provide us with the legal opinion that led to you making that statement on behalf of the department at the meeting?

4:45 p.m.

Mark Schaan Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

The drafting process for amendments considers both policy and legal considerations. Our recommendation that “best interests” might be less interpretable than, in particular, the capacity indications we've indicated in the government amendment is a mixture of those. I'm not in possession of a legal opinion that I'm able to share with the committee.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

In my discussion with the Privacy Commissioner yesterday, he referenced a couple of existing cases in Canada that he said related to the best interests of the child. In fact, he gave me a couple of examples of where the best interests of the child were included.

The first example is the case of K.M.N. v. S.Z.M., 2024 BCCA 70. The B.C. Court of Appeal allowed an appeal by a mother because the trial judge failed to conduct a proper analysis of the allegations of family violence by the father. The court in this instance recognized that the best interests of the child are of paramount importance in family law matters. This new judgment clarified that it is not sufficient to limit the best interests of the child analysis “to evidence of violence specifically directed towards the child”.

We can also look at the 2015 Supreme Court of Canada case Kanthasamy v. Canada. In this case, the Supreme Court of Canada considered the best interests of the child and made a decision in the context of an application for permanent residence on humanitarian and compassionate grounds. It held that decision-makers, in this case the Department of Immigration, must identify, define and examine the best interests of the child and consider them in view of the other relevant factors.

The best interests of the child, in my opinion, is not a subjective construct. Provinces across the country have the best interests of the child written into many laws. Here is a list of the references where the best interests of the child is used: Manitoba family law, B.C. family law, Alberta family law, Nova Scotia family law, Ontario family law, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Nunavut.

4:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Quebec....

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I just want to get down to that. Why would you say that it's a subjective construct when it's clearly a defined term that's used in the Canadian legal system already?

4:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

I appreciate the references that have been put on the record. I'd note that they're all in a family law context. What is at issue here is the construct of the best interests of the child from a commercial context, given that we're talking about the commercial application of personal information in a transaction between a consumer and a corporate entity. Those family law constructs are well understood in custody and various other family law contexts, but they are not jurisprudentially established in a commercial law context.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I would also point out that the Canadian Bar Association has a document outlining their perspective on the best interests of the child.

The first point from the Canadian Bar Association—and I don't believe this is reflective just of family law—is that the best interests of the child is a “substantive right” and should be “a primary consideration in actions concerning the child due to the child's dependency, maturity, legal status and often ‘voicelessness’ [in society]”.

Second, the Canadian Bar Association outlines with respect to the best interests of the child that it is in fact an “interpretative principle”, noting, “if a legal provision is open to more than one interpretation, the interpretation which most effectively serves the child’s best interests should be chosen”.

Third, the Canadian Bar Association points out that the best interests of the child refers to a “rule of procedure”, which includes “legal representation, timely decisions, reasons for how a decision was reached, how factors were weighed, and how the child's views were considered.”

Fourth, the best interests of the child, according to the Canadian Bar Association, is “a substantive right and guiding principle that covers all [Convention on the Rights of the Child] rights, is aimed at the child’s holistic development and requires a rights based approach that promotes the child’s human dignity: adult judgment, and cannot override a child's rights.” I don't believe this is subject solely to family law

I will also point out that I have a quick analysis by the Library of Parliament. They have a number of examples of where a child's best interests lie, and they go beyond family law. This also relates to the treatment of indigenous children through, for example, An Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families. There are numerous other cases that I'd be happy to share with the committee. That was done very quickly, but I did get that from the Library of Parliament. They gave me 50 different examples of where the best interests of the child is in Canadian law at the provincial and federal levels.

I'm just going to say that in response.

As to my next question, last year, the privacy commissioners across the country all signed a special resolution of the federal, provincial and territorial privacy commissioners and ombuds with responsibility for privacy oversight, which specifically highlights putting the best interests of young people at the forefront of privacy and access to personal information.

Mr. Schaan, do you agree with the use of the term “best interests of the child” in the joint declaration of every single privacy commissioner, including the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, which was put out in October 2023?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree with the sentiment that the privacy commissioners have expressed. To my mind, "protection of the best interests" of the child is the centrepiece of our bill.

In that spirit, I'm not at all at odds with the directional push from privacy commissioners to ensure that there are appropriate protections in place for children.

April 10th, 2024 / 4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

The Privacy Commissioner, along with every single territorial and provincial privacy commissioner in Canada, considered putting the best interests of young people at the forefront of this law. I'm at a loss as to why the department does not want to include the very language that our privacy commissioners at the provincial, territorial and federal levels of government have signed for and requested we add, which is from the documents they unanimously agreed to.

The document “Putting best interests of young people at the forefront of privacy and access to personal information” is about building in a child's right to privacy “by design”. It's about being “transparent”. It's about setting “privacy protective settings by default” and turning off “tracking and profiling”. It's about rejecting “deceptive practices”, limiting “the disclosure of personal information”, allowing for “deletion or deindexing and limiting retention” and facilitating “access to and correction of personal information”.

All of you can find this document on the Privacy Commissioner's website. It's right on there.

Again, I'm at a loss, from what I've heard today from the department officials, as to why they would say this is a subjective construct.

Ms. Denham, in response to the testimony from the last meeting, wrote to me. She is a former privacy commissioner of British Columbia and a former privacy commissioner of the U.K., where they embedded the best interests of the child into British statute law. She stated:

I remain supportive of the Conservative amendment in the preamble. “Best interests of the child” is a legal test [not a construct] used to decide what would best protect a child's physical, psychological and emotional safety, security and well being. It is defined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Canada is a signatory. But in Canadian provincial law—

I agree with this.

—it generally means decisions about the issues of the child related to guardianship, parental responsibilities, parenting time, when the child can decide something on their own, relating to the level/stage of maturity etc.

She goes on:

I think it is critically important that privacy as a fundamental right, and special protection for children and minors' rights, is referenced in the preamble. The Bill also mandates that children's data be considered sensitive data—and that is very important and impactful.

The Privacy Commissioner of Canada recommended that we include the best interests of the child in the preamble, which he also recommended be included in the body of the bill. The former privacy commissioner of British Columbia, and one of the leading global experts, recommended that we do that as well.

They're not coming from nowhere on this. The OECD, in fact, which Canada is a signatory to, has a recommendation on children in the digital environment. Canada is a signatory to this document. I read it today during question period. It's actually called “OECD Recommendation on Children in the Digital Environment”. It's an OECD legal instrument document.

In the document, they speak about the best interests of the child. This is an international legal document that Canada has signed. The OECD, which Canada is a signatory to, recognizes that:

...the digital environment is a fundamental part of children’s daily lives and interactions in a number of contexts, including formal and informal education, formal and informal health services, recreation, entertainment, maintaining links to culture, socialising, expressing themselves and their identity through the creation of digital content, engagement with political issues, and as consumers....

They recognizes that:

...children’s capabilities vary by age, maturity, and circumstances, and that actions and policies for children in the digital environment should be age-appropriate, tailored to accommodate developmental differences, and reflect that children may experience different kinds of access to digital technologies based on their socio-cultural and socio-economic backgrounds and the level of parental, guardian, and carer engagement....

They also recognize that “safeguarding children’s privacy and protecting children’s personal data is vital for children’s well-being and autonomy and for meeting their needs in the digital environment”.

That document also references the UN's rights for children “in the digital environment”, which states, “The best interests of the child is a dynamic concept that requires an assessment appropriate to the specific context.”

What the subamendment doesn't accomplish is that it doesn't allow for that very specific language that is well defined in documents that Canada is a signatory to, including from the OECD and the G7, which I will get to, as well as various American state laws that I will touch upon.

The UN states, “States parties should ensure that, in all actions regarding the provision, regulation, design, management and use of the digital environment, the best interests of every child is a primary consideration.” Canada is a signatory to the document where they outline this.

I'll go back to the OECD for a second, for their guidelines for digital service providers:

The Guidelines aim to support Digital Service Providers, when they take actions that may directly or indirectly affect children in the digital environment, in determining how best to protect and respect the rights, safety, and interests of children, recognising that girls, children belonging to racial, ethnic and religious minorities, children with disabilities, and others belonging to disadvantaged groups may require additional support and protection.

That document also states, “Limit the collection of personal data and its subsequent use or disclosure to third parties to the fulfilment of the provision of the service in the child’s best interests”. Again, Canada is a signatory to that document.

Internationally, there was a resolution by data protection authorities from around the world on children's digital rights. That was signed by Canada's Privacy Commissioner as well. That states, “Affirming that in the implementation of policies relating to their rights in the digital environment, taking into account the evolving capacities of children and their best interests must be a primary consideration.”

I'll go on.

In France, a trading partner of Canada, their commission outlines it:

In order to support young people, parents and professionals develop a digital environment that is more respectful of children's best interests, the CNIL has published 8 recommendations stemming from a review conducted with all the stakeholders concerned.

France, in their laws, recognizes the best interests of the child. Also, Ireland's data commissioner has a core message that “the best interests of the child must always be a primary consideration”.

One that is very important is the G20 digital ministers' call for actors involved in the digital environment to “Uphold the child's best interests”. Canada is a signatory to the G20, which outlines that the best interests of the child in the digital environment must be taken into account in our policy development and our legal rules.

That's in response to what you just said.

For Mr. Schaan or any other department official, is California an important trading partner for Canada?

5 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

I think you'll find, from the statistical data on trade flows, that yes, it is.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

What importance does California have in the development of technology that might be applicable to Bill C-27?

5 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

I'm not sure that I'm in a position to offer all the ways in which California is engaged in technological development, but obviously they're a tech centre.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

From what I understand—and I think you would probably agree—many Canadian companies in the tech sector do business with tech sector companies in California. Is that a fair assumption?

5 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

Again, I'd say that California is a locus of activity related to the tech sector. As for whether Canadian companies do business with them, I think that would vary.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

In California, Mr. Schaan, there is the California Age-Appropriate Design Code Act. That act states very clearly:

If a conflict arises between commercial interests and the best interests of children, companies should prioritize the privacy, safety, and well-being of children over commercial interests.

This is in the law that governs the largest economy in the United States, where more technological development takes place than anywhere in the world. I am still at a loss as to why the department would state that the “best interests of the child” is a subjective construct. Please answer.

5:05 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

Mark Schaan

I hope I've been clear. Our considerations and commentary on the record are that, in a commercial context, the interpretability of this term may pose challenges for implementation by corporate entities in terms of their understanding.

I think we've spoken to the fact that the established tests for courts or parents to understand that are important considerations, but as it relates to the commercial context, there may be better ways of being able to express the same concern about the stronger protections required.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

We did not hear from a single witness who disagreed or did not believe that the best interests of the child is a concept worthy of being in this legislation.

Throughout the initial Parliamentary debate and from everyone we've heard from so far, it's been very clear that in this changing and dangerous digital landscape, we have to protect children. In my meeting with the Privacy Commissioner yesterday, he very clearly stated that the adoption of this subamendment would reduce his ability to do his job and effectively enforce the protection of children's privacy rights.

I'll also mention that I reached out to Mr. Michael Beauvais. He was another witness. Along with Professor Leslie Regan Shade, he said in response to the proposed subamendment:

The overarching problem with the proposed sub-amendment is its narrowness. Children are citizens and are more than just economic actors. Not mentioning the best interests removes an important tool in the regulator's toolbox to develop guidelines or regulations dealing with minors. The proposed sub-amendment suggests that minors' information is only worthy of increased protection because of their “varying levels of capacity to understand how [their personal information] is used by organizations” and the use's long-term implications. It may lead to an interpretation that minors with “capacity” merit less robust protections. Even educated adults experience difficulties in understanding how organizations use their personal information, especially in “Big Data” contexts.

Moreover, focusing on children as participants in the digital economy—

This is per the department's views.

—takes too narrow a view. For example, the Bill would apply to indigenous bands regulated under the Indian Act. (This is currently the case with the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act). While this is part of a broader issue, the draft language exacerbates the framing of individuals as consumers/economic actors.

Let me state very clearly the Conservatives' position. My job is to protect children. I believe that is the same objective of everyone around this committee table. I looked very closely at the subamendment, and I cannot in good faith support this measure in its current form. We have to include the language of the best interests of children. There is too much at stake that we don't understand.

I know that I've been going on for a while now. I will note, and I will re-emphasize, that in the first recommendation from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, the commissioner requested that we put the preamble into the body of the bill. There were also concerns raised regarding the reference to artificial intelligence.

On Monday, we had some semantic arguments about schedule 1 and schedule 2. We're not going to repeat that. However, when this bill was created, it reminded me of my catechism class as a young man when we learned about the Holy Trinity: three in one, one in three, one being the same, consubstantial, begotten of the Father, not made. Francesco probably went to the same classes as I did.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

You paid attention; I didn't.

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

This is like the Holy Trinity of digital bills. It is three in one, and it's one and the same. Three are different, not the same, but all are together.

It's confusing. I am really confused. I know that some of the terms of the titles refer to acts, but they are, in fact, all three bills—one in three, three in one, one and the same.

I know that Mr. Schaan's having a good chuckle about that as well.

I will stop there for the moment. I believe I'm going to stand by the recommendations of the Privacy Commissioner in good faith, and I look forward to further debate on the subamendment.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Vis.

Next I have Mr. Perkins.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm out of breath.