Industry Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

You could also provide us with the list of people.

[Simon Kennedy]

I'd be glad to provide more information on our consultations. We certainly consulted extensively on the data-related components in Bill C‑27. This is the second time a bill like this has been brought forward, so numerous discussions with a range of stakeholders have taken place.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'm asking because it's tough for us to know the environment we're working in. The bill has three parts. The officials here today are doing their best, but having a clearer sense of the environment we're working in may help us work more quickly.

[Simon Kennedy]

I understand. I can say a few things about the tribunal, if I may.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

By all means.

[Simon Kennedy]

I'll tell you what I think, and perhaps Mr. Schaan can provide more of a technical explanation.

The purpose of the bill is to establish an array of new requirements and mechanisms in relation to how data is used. The idea is to create an environment where companies have to adhere to much stricter rules around how they use data, including information relating to children.

The economy and how it functions also come into play. The goal is to create an environment where people can quickly access justice or answers when they run into problems or have questions. The reason for creating a tribunal—a fairly common tool in other fields—was to make sure that a group of people was available to deal with questions and concerns regarding companies' compliance with the legislation on a fairly quick basis.

Those wanting to challenge the tribunal's decision have the option of bringing the matter before the courts. The tribunal, for its part, is a way for people to get answers quickly. It's meant to give everyone assurance that a body is in place to examine all the facts and circumstances, and make a decision. I don't know whether that's a clear explanation, but that's the purpose of the bill.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

It helps.

[Simon Kennedy]

In our view, the changes proposed in the bill could lead to more people bringing legal proceedings against companies.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Have you done an objective assessment on that? A few of the commissioner's decisions have been challenged in the past, but very rarely. Nevertheless, I have a second question. If the Minister of Justice appointed more judges, would things move more quickly?

[Simon Kennedy]

I don't know, but we believe that, going forward, demand for decisions may go up or decisions may be needed more often. The question is whether a mechanism like the tribunal makes for a more efficient process.

I can give you a more detailed explanation with the reasons why we believe a tribunal is necessary and why it's an appropriate mechanism. I'm not sure whether that's already been discussed with the committee. If so, I apologize. I know that Mr. Schaan has been here a number of times.

It is just our opinion, but we believe that the tribunal will allow for faster and more efficient decision-making. It also means that, when people have a problem, they won't always have to turn to the courts or the commissioner or Parliament. Those processes are very serious and time-consuming. With the introduction of much more stringent requirements for everyone and the creation of an array of new processes to protect people's privacy, we wanted a process that would be relatively quick.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I looked up the competition reforms, and they are very good. The first time I raised that on committee here was in 2003 when James Rajotte was the chair. Sometimes I feel like The Scream represents my life here at committee.

It is important, so I'm really happy to see this stuff happening with the Competition Bureau. There are still things I want to see happen.

I want to make sure, though, budget-wise.... I didn't get a specific response. Do we know?

I really want them to have the empowerment necessary. They have some amazing people, by the way, in that organization.

[Simon Kennedy]

The amount they've received is $96 million in new funding over five years. That is money that carries over from year to year. It doesn't show up as new funding in these estimates.

The commissioner is obviously the proper person to talk about this, but we work very closely together. They are still in ramp-up mode. They're still hiring, and they're still building out the capacity that the funding provided.

We were very happy, I have to say, even as officials, to see the bureau receive a pretty substantial increase in funds.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Part of that is that we want to save taxpayers' money. There's always spending that takes place here. There are cuts and so forth.

What's often ignored in Canada is the market economy of being ripped off. Quite frankly, I've always said that Canada gets treated like a colony by some businesses. I could give a good example. In the auto industry—I know it's not your department; it's in Transport—under auto recall, United States citizens receive far superior treatment than Canadian consumers. I could go on and on with a bunch of different things.

I really believe that the Competition Bureau changes are critical for lowering costs for Canadians. I appreciate the work on that.

With that, I want to move to the grocery code of conduct, the voluntary one that's being proposed. Are resources being provided for that, or is it still being hatched? What is taking place? Why not go to something that's not voluntary? I looked at the voluntary one quite a bit four or five years ago, and they don't seem to be successful in other places.

I know there's a theory that we start with this and then go from there, but I'm at the point where I'd prefer to see some type of.... In the auto industry, we have incentive versus punishment if you don't follow through on what you're supposed to be doing.

Where is it? Is it getting resources? What do we have to look forward to, and are there any hooks to it for consumers?

[Simon Kennedy]

I have two quick comments.

One is, just in fairness, the code of conduct is led by the Minister of Agriculture, so my colleague over there, the deputy.... It would probably be inappropriate for me to trample all over her area of responsibility. I will say that we work very closely with the agriculture ministry. There is definitely still active work going on that we're involved in, and we have visibility on trying to drive the code of conduct across the finish line.

There is a measure of optimism that it will happen soon, but that is a process that's been under way for some time. There's been a lot of investment by provinces and by the industry itself. There's been an effort to see whether or not that will yield fruit. If it does not in some timely way, then there could be other ways to pursue the same outcome. For now, the agriculture ministry is managing that, and they might be in a better position to provide you with a bit more detail.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's fair enough; it's just that it touches on our department here, too, because you have to remember that this industry cut pandemic pay the same day across the board after the lawyers talked to each other, which was technically allowed because the CEOs didn't talk to each other.

These are the people who fixed the price of bread. This is where the competition in industry comes into play, as the Competition Bureau was the one that brought that to light. I can't think of a lower point than when one of the basic staples for Canadians is used as a weapon against them with regard to price fixing.

That's why I don't have a lot of time for a voluntary code of conduct versus something with more enforcement. You're rewarding bad behaviour.

I'll leave it there for that. I do want to follow up with regard to telecommunications industries and the spectrum auctions that are coming up. Are there any further spectrum auctions? I haven't stayed on top of it, but are there spectrum auctions that are going to be coming up in the next year?

[Simon Kennedy]

There are definitely more spectrum auctions coming. There's a millimetre wave auction that is coming. The work is under way on that.

I'm looking over at my colleague Mark, who works very closely with our spectrum and telecom branch.

Go ahead.

[Mark Schaan]

There is, in fact, a millimetre wave consultation that's being held. There's also one on...I'm going to get the name of it wrong.

[Simon Kennedy]

You're doing what I was doing.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I know it's hard. Again, this is a separate file.

[Mark Schaan]

It's a separate framework for essentially what we call unused segments of the sector, so those are the two spectrum frameworks that are still out.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, so the unused ones are.... Yes, exactly, that's something I've been after for a long period of time as well, to get them back into the system. So there will be that “use it or lose it” policy. Is that where they're coming from, or is it different?

[Mark Schaan]

It's different, so “use it or lose it” is part of the build-out conditions that are part of the ultimate result of a spectrum auction. When spectrum is actually auctioned, it then has conditions assigned to it, including licence conditions for what the build-out rate is and how quickly it has to be put in force. This is a separate framework that's for where you have essentially low amounts of spectrum, where you potentially want to put, for instance, like a network around a manufacturing facility or a farm field, and it's a separate band that is near the millimetre wave but essentially works in that space. I just can't remember the name of it.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's okay.

Actually, I'll finish with this, which is pretty important, because I know that some industrial parks have these pockets that don't have the service and the speed necessary for them to compete globally, which I've run into in a number of different areas.

[Simon Kennedy]

That is a specific area that we are interested in, and there's been a lot.... Obviously members will judge whether it's sufficient, but we have been really working hard to free up more spectrum. For example, we have residual auctions, like when there's spectrum left over that nobody bids on, we go back out and offer it to players and so on. We have a lot in this space. We'd be happy to share more.