Industry Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Maybe we could ask the clerk to put a sign on the door to ask people to close it gently. It's probably hurting the translators as well. It's very, very loud. We're supposed to be doing this to help the translators, but I can only imagine what they're hearing through the door being.... Yes, they're looking at it right now. Thank you—could we just put a sign on the door?

At any rate, with regard to the incentives that are provided in aluminum, we had a situation in Windsor, and I did get a satisfactory response from one of your previous officials, but I want to follow up on this because I can't let it go. It's on Nemak, in Windsor, which was provided federal funds by the Province of Ontario and also the federal government under Navdeep Bains. What ended up happening is that we had the incentive go to them; they then took that money, made a product for the auto sector and, basically, took that innovation to Mexico and closed down operations here. The union actually had to go to court to get back wages, and recently won. We funded the innovation in Canada, but they took it out and brought it to Mexico, and we lost all those jobs. Are there enough qualifiers in the incentive with regard to the aluminum project to ensure that we don't have any of that taking place?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Listen, I can assure you now....

I just want to add to what Mr. Masse said, Mr. Chair. I was looking at the translators, who are doing a superb job, and I think they were praying for us to put a sign on the door, because that is a real issue that they were flagging to me—I could see them through the window.

Going back to the question of Mr. Masse, I think that what you will see today is that we are very much looking forward. I appreciate that I cannot really comment specifically on that transaction, because I don't have the details, but I can assure you that, in all the agreements we're doing, we're making sure we maximize jobs in Canada and the creation and retention of IP. I think we have become far more sophisticated in making sure that any public support is coupled with the right, I would say, undertakings to make sure we protect.... I think everyone realizes that the IP is key now, that we need to keep the knowledge and the IP. I can tell you that in all the agreements that I've seen, there's always a provision around IP, because we understand how crucial it is.

If you want more detail on that transaction, I would have to turn to the officials.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I've raised it ad nauseam, because it has really affected many people. There were workers in their forties and fifties who missed out on their pensionable years, so it was really horrific.

They already took two pay cuts to keep the jobs in Canada. We came in with money, and we were assured that this wouldn't happen. I keep raising it, because I don't want that to happen to another community. I literally know the faces of the people. Try to get a job when you're 40 or 50 and have already taken $10 off your wage two different times.

That's the end of my questions, Mr. Chair. I just don't want that to be a story for somewhere else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

I'm going to suspend for about two minutes. When we come back, we'll resume the meeting, and then we'll discuss the main estimates for an hour.

Thank you, everyone.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Colleagues, I'll call the meeting back to order so that everyone can ask the minister questions.

I remind you that the second hour of our meeting is on the main estimates. Since the minister has already given his opening remarks, we will begin the first round of questions.

Rick Perkins, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister.

The month before you were appointed Minister of Industry, which was about 40 months ago, your predecessor in your government allocated another $750 million towards SDTC, which the public knows as the green slush fund.

Is that correct?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We would have to check the record, but one thing I would object to is that I don't think Canadians would say that.

If you're saying that, you're probably insulting 500 Canadian companies in the tech sector, but that's up to you, Mr. Perkins, because I don't think—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's what the record shows on the budget.

During the 40 months that you've been the minister of the green slush fund, your ADM, Andrew Noseworthy, was at every single board meeting it had.

Did he ever report to you the numerous votes the board held on what they called “managed conflict”, in which they voted money to themselves and, in the case of Andrée-Lise Méthot, $42 million to that Liberal appointee and to the company she had a venture capital interest in? Did that assistant deputy minister—I know it was before Mr. Kennedy—ever report to you about those? Some of it happened under Mr. Kennedy as well.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

For the record, I don't think Canadians would describe it the way you are.

One thing Canadians need to know, to answer your question, is that SDTC was created by an act of Parliament. I just want you to be aware of that. The Government of Canada does not control the board. The Government of Canada appoints a number of people on the board. They have their own board. They have their own chair. They have their own CEO, and that's why Parliament at the time wanted to make sure they would be independent.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

With all due respect, even the board members—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Turnbull has a point of order.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I know it's customary for members to have their time. I totally respect that Mr. Perkins wants to ask his line of questioning. I would just ask that the minister be allowed to finish his response. I think it's just due respect, when we have ministers come before the committee, to allow them to finish their response.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Perkins, you don't have the floor.

I agree, Mr. Turnbull. At the same time, I'll ask the minister to try to keep his answers brief, given that members have limited time, but I agree with your point.

Mr. Perkins, go ahead.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

If you could, keep your answers to about the length of my questions, so that we can get through them in my limited time.

I will ask you this again, because the government you're a part of appoints eight of the board members, who hold the majority. They include Andrée-Lise Méthot. Your government appointed her. She actually voted on or had the board vote on $42 million.

It's a simple question. Was any of that reported to you before it broke in the media?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say just for the record, and for Canadians watching, that the Government of Canada does not appoint the majority. I would say that Mr. Perkins should go and read the law.

This is not an agency of government. This is a creation of Parliament. The Government of Canada does not appoint the majority of the board members.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You're refusing to answer the question.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No. I'm educating you. It's different.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Were you—answer yes or no—informed about the votes at the board by your assistant deputy minister, who was at every board meeting, and that they were voting on money for their own companies?

Answer yes or no.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

What I am educating you about is the composition of the board, because Canadians who are watching need to know the facts. The fact is that this is a creation of Parliament. It's not an agency of the Government of Canada. The way Parliament wanted to do—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Was the money...?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No.

That's just so you know the background, Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I know the background. I know how to read.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm not sure. You were not in Parliament at the time.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's easy to read the history of the thing.

It was a simple question, which you're refusing to answer. Obviously, they didn't inform you.

You froze the money because of the scandal that's going on. Is that correct?