Evidence of meeting #131 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Samir Chhabra  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry

Samir Chhabra

It would take a route that would increase the burden and workload on all, including on the bureau, but not actually achieve the desired effect, because it would then allow them to still continue to benefit from a one-year period.

I think it's important to note that we've already taken steps in previous bills, including specifically in Bill C-59. There was consultation on this issue through the overall consultation on competition reform. It was seen to be important to provide more time for the commissioner to review, but not in cases where the bureau isn't aware of the transaction in advance. That's the difference between Bill C-59's approach and what's being proposed here, aside from the drafting issue I just noted.

It comes down to a question of why you'd want to increase business uncertainty over a longer period of time when an organization has already gone through the step of advising the bureau in advance of its activities of the proposed merger.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Got it. Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you, MP Turnbull.

MP Masse.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

To respond, the bureau and the competition commissioner have asked for this. I've heard these arguments about business uncertainty. Again, it's about the black hole opening up and sucking us all through. That we're not going to have innovation and all these different things because we protect consumers has been used against the public continually through arguments here at Industry Canada for decades, and I don't think it's going to limit any of those things.

I think that giving flexibility to the Competition Bureau to be able to discretely use that direction they have, and those capabilities, will actually provide more strength to them. Also, when we have some of the changing technologies going on, it's going to require some flexibility for the Competition Bureau to look back, and one year is not sufficient anymore when three years of damage to competition for Canadians could take place for it.

I support this wholeheartedly and believe it's a modest step forward to improving the bill.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you, MP Masse.

Is there any further discussion on NDP-4?

I will ask for a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 12 negatived: nays 10; yeas 0)

(On clause 13)

11:50 a.m.

The Vice-Char Mr. Rick Perkins

We have an amendment to clause 13, NDP-5.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

MP Masse.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm really pleased to move this amendment. I would think this at least would get passed, especially if you are concerned about the abuse of Rogers and other telcos on Canadian consumers. This is dealing with the tribunal claim costs from the bureau and making sure that it incorporates parts of Bill C-59 in clause 13 of Bill C-352. This would serve the purpose of ensuring the amendment is made in a case where clause 266 of Bill C-59 is not passed by the Senate in its current form.

Again, coming from the department of redundancy, it is to make sure we actually have this pass here. What I'm concerned about, and I think lots of Canadians are, is that the tribunal has passed on costs to the Competition Bureau to do its job.

I'll leave it at that. Hopefully, we can pass this to make sure it gets done. Again, we can't predict what the Senate's going to do.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

We have MP Williams and MP Turnbull.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I think this is a good amendment. You think of the things that are wrong. When you have a police force that's responsible for bringing charges or a decision you would think would be anti-competition, or you think of competition as a whole.... We can talk about this law with the committee and the privacy, but eventually, hopefully, we talk about the Competition Tribunal.

It overturns the ruling and then the organization, Rogers, was able to sue the bureau. That would be like something getting overturned in court and the defendant suing the police force, which happens sometimes when things are really wrong. We say that, under exceptional circumstances, that should happen, but it should not have happened in this case.

Rogers should not have gotten a penny out of the Competition Bureau. The Competition Bureau was doing its job. Of all of them, this is probably, I'll agree, the best amendment that we have coming out of this bill, and we certainly support it.

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

My understanding of this is that the way that it was initially drafted, it inadvertently allowed for cost awards against the Crown in its original formulation. The NDP has tried to fix that drafting error, which is now duplicative of what's already in Bill C-59, which is a simpler and more elegant fix, so I don't see the need to pass this. We can vote against it, and we will be doing so.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

MP Masse, you have the floor.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There's no downside to making sure that this happens.

I'm kind of concerned that the Liberals, again, are counting on something that hasn't taken place, whereas this is going to ensure that there's consistency in this. We are facing right now the same situation with the Privacy Commissioner by creating a tribunal that the Liberals want. It's why they filibustered two days of this committee, not moving on Bill C-27 because of that. It was because we are at odds with regard to their creating a tribunal that could then cost Canadian taxpayers.

It's not just the Competition Bureau that lost in this case. It was Canadian taxpayers, who had to pay money out of their pockets to Rogers because the Competition Bureau didn't have the protection necessary to go at the case, and it's having a cooling effect out there. How many other large corporations, conglomerates and oligopolies are going to be allowed this type of exemption and be told that it's okay for them to go after the Competition Bureau in their rulings?

That's a cooling effect that's really hard, and it also takes resources away from the Competition Bureau. They're short $5 million from their funds right now to protect Canadians, because Rogers went after them on this specific case. It sends the message as well that we're going to pass this over and say, “Hey, it's okay. We're going to basically allow you to continue this type of behaviour, and we're going to green-light it.”

That's what this is about. It's fine if it is a little bit redundant with regard to what has taken place with another bill that's in another chamber that we can't guarantee will get done. The Liberals are going to oppose it for just that alone, not for the real reasons for doing that. That's fine. They can be on the public record for doing that, for giving them another pass. When they come here, it almost looks like an audition for them, looking at their board of directors, because we've seen the history of what's taken place when people leave here and where they go.

I can tell you this much, this at least is the most modest thing that has been proposed by a progressive bill, which is going to send a message to Canadian companies that they're not going to abuse our competition commissioner and the bureau anymore. I hope that this will get support to get done, because it is very much, at the very least, going to have the control that we have in this part here....

I'm not willing, but I guess the Liberals are willing to turn over the reins to the unelected Senate. With regard to this, I'm not willing to do so, because they could do an amendment on that bill that takes this out. We don't have the ability to know what they're going to do or when they're going to pass it. We would then have to deal with that back in the House of Commons as well. Maybe it's a precursor to this. Maybe it's their plan to take this out of Bill C-59 in the Senate bill and put in back in the House. That could be their strategy perhaps, because it doesn't make any sense for them to oppose what they put in the legislation before, which we can't control right now. However, we can do it at this moment and make sure that we send a strong signal to the Competition Bureau and the commissioner.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you, MP Masse.

Go ahead, MP Turnbull.

June 17th, 2024 / 11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

We're opposing this because we've already done it. It's in the bill that is in the Senate. Mr Masse is making a plea to us to support something that we've already supported. It's already been done. This is redundant, and that's why we're voting against it. It's as simple as that.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you, MP Turnbull.

MP Vis, you have the floor.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Can Mr. Masse clarify whether he thinks this is redundant?

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It's a backstop, but that's the whole point. The problem is that we don't have enough supports in our systems, and we don't control what the Senate's going to do. Maybe the Liberals are going to take this out of Bill C-59 in the Senate. We could have that happen. We don't know what they're going to pass, but what we can do is pass this here and tell the Senate that we're supporting this change.

What we're telling the Senate right now, if we don't pass this, is that we don't really care about this. That's what we're telling the Senate. They're dealing with the legislation, so if we take this out, the message to the Senate is that they can take it out as well, because we're not being consistent in protecting what we want. That's the reason I think it's important.

I don't know what their objective is on this, but clearly, there is an objective here in the sense that, if we say to the Senate right now that we don't care about this and that we're going to pass a bill without it, we've just told them that they can tinker with that because the House of Commons has now defeated it, and that bill will be inconsistent with what we're dealing with right here. That will be the message that we send them.

On this particular issue, it's pretty germane to what's taken place with Canadian competition and the offence that's taken place to the Competition Bureau. That's what we're dealing with now, and that's why I think the redundancy that we've proposed here today is actually important.

I'm a little upset with it because we're telling the Senate right now, again, that we're reversing course, that we're changing sails, and a House of Commons committee with the government voting against this is telling the Senate that they don't care about this issue, that they don't support consistency and that they have mixed messages. On top of that, they could actually take those messages and turn that around to amendments that will then come back to the House of Commons, further delaying the passage of Bill C-59, because if the bill actually gets amendments in the Senate, then we have to deal with it again in our chamber.

This is why I'm a bit concerned about this. I think it's a bigger issue than it is because I don't understand why the Liberals just wouldn't say, “Do you know what? It's redundancy, but that's okay. We have a backstop here. Let's go. We'll send the message to the Senate that we're clear, that we're good on these things and that we want it passed.” Instead what they're doing is saying that they have second thoughts about protecting the Competition Bureau, second thoughts about the competition commissioner getting sued by large conglomerates, including Rogers, and second thoughts about other things to protect Canadian consumers.

That's the message being told here, and I'm totally concerned with their position on this because I don't know if they have another agenda in the Senate. I don't know if we now have to have delays to get the bill passed because it has to come back again, but that's what we're telling them.

They'll look at this. They'll look at the testimony here, and they'll say, “Well, do you know what the government's saying? It's saying that it doesn't want to do it anymore.”

Again, I think we should just pass it because it's consistent, and I think consistency's important to get it done.

Thank you.

Noon

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you.

MP Garon.

Noon

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

My colleague Mr. Masse knows how much esteem and respect I have for him, but I don't understand why so much success on the part of the NDP generates so much anger. It's part of the benefits of an agreement with the government to see that what you put in your own bills ends up in the government's.

For my part, I'm in favour of legislative simplicity and against duplication. If the people in the Senate are listening to us—let's assume they are—we can send them the message today that we find this element important and that they should not remove it from Bill C‑59. I submit to my colleagues that, if the Senate removes this part from Bill C‑59, quite logically, they won't mind removing it from a private member's bill.

So, while reiterating the fact that this is a very important point, I feel that, for reasons of legislative simplicity, it would be advisable to vote against this amendment.

Noon

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

Thank you, MP Garon.

Are there any more comments on NDP-5? Are we ready for a vote?

Given the debate, I think we should probably have a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 13 negatived)

A new clause 14 is being proposed by the NDP in NDP-6.

I'm assuming Mr. Masse wants to speak to NDP-6.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes. I don't think we knew to do the coordinating amendments because nothing was passed, so we're done.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

I understand, from the clerk, that it's your choice whether you want to move NDP-6 through NDP-12. Are you suggesting you're not going to move them?

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

No, that's fine. It gets the same results, so it's fine.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

All right. Thank you, MP Masse.

We'll move to the end-of-the-bill motions. Shall the alternative title carry?

We'll have a vote—