Evidence of meeting #133 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
You are informed. You can bring your counsel, which you normally do. You are put under oath, and then we ask you questions, and then we may want to have certain records. We have the power to issue a subpoena and expect to get everything, and we can also subpoena third parties.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
Do you think it would be fair to say that if there's not been a complaint by someone or a third party or if your office has not picked up on something that seems wrong in the disclosure itself, your office generally will not know if there are misdoings or misconduct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We won't know unless it's something in the public domain. Usually, it may be that somebody informed us or else there's something in the papers or on TV, or something that is sufficient to meet the threshold I just mentioned.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
Okay.
I think we've seen this line of criticism from the Conservatives. They keep claiming that you, as a Trudeau-appointed commissioner, failed at your job by not sufficiently keeping an eye on Ms. Verschuren throughout her appointment. I think the questions I've asked have clearly shown that your job is not to keep sort of a proactive eye: It's through disclosures or through complaints that reach your office. Am I correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'd take objection to “Trudeau-appointed”. I was appointed by the Governor in Council, and the appointment was approved unanimously by the House of Commons, so I'm not partisan in any way. I was appointed because of my former history in the public service and, as I say, all parties agreed to it. My job is to honestly and objectively administer the facts.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
On the criticism that you were to proactively keep an eye on Ms. Verschuren, I think your answers have clearly shown that is not in the purview of your office.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. I essentially act either on information that is sent to me or if there is something that's in the public domain that is sufficient to give me reason to believe that there's a conflict of interest there, but I'm not doing supervision of people, nor of organizations.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you very much, MP Gaheer.
Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you, Counsel, for your presence here with us today. We're off to a great start to this session.
On that, we will briefly suspend. We'll be right back in about five minutes with Annette Verschuren.
Thank you. The meeting is suspended.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Colleagues, we are resuming this meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.
We are welcoming Annette Verschuren back to the committee.
Ms. Verschuren, thank you for joining us today for the committee's first meeting since the summer break. As you know, you have five minutes for your opening remarks. Without further ado, I'll give you the floor.
Annette Verschuren, o.c. As an Individual
Mr. Chair, honourable members, thank you and good afternoon.
I was pleased to accept your invitation to discuss the findings, analysis and conclusions contained in the commissioner's report.
I want to emphasize to this committee and to Canadians that on the day the report was released, I immediately accepted the findings of the commissioner, just as he accepted that I acted in good faith and that I properly sought legal guidance to ensure compliance with all established guidelines.
I'll say it again. I accept his findings, all of them, just as he accepts that I, at all times, acted in good faith and with the best of intentions.
Since we're here to discuss the commissioner's report, let me go right to the source.
In his report, the commissioner concluded, and I quote, “In my view, Ms. Verschuren took what she believed at the time to be proper steps to ensure that her interests did not interfere with the exercise of her official duties as Chairperson of SDTC. She believed at the time that she had acted within the bounds of the Act.”
Later he concluded, and again I quote, “There is no evidence that Ms. Verschuren attempted to influence the decision of her colleagues on SDTC’s Board.”
He also concluded, and again I quote, “It is unfortunate that a lack of consistency in decision-making processes at SDTC, coupled with incorrect legal advice, caused Ms. Verschuren to deviate from that standard practice and thus led her to contravene the Act.”
To the members of the committee, and to Canadians, I say I trusted the professional and experienced legal advice that I was given. I followed established SDTC board practices that predated my tenure. At all times I took what I believed to be the correct steps.
In the eyes of the commissioner, those established practices were flawed. That legal advice didn't go far enough. I abstained from voting when, in his view, I should have taken the additional step of recusing myself. I accept his findings, just as he accepts that I acted in good faith and adhered to what I believed to be the proper set of measures.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm happy now to answer your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you very much, Ms. Verschuren.
Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for six minutes.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Verschuren.
Ms. Verschuren, when did the minister's office approach you to consider being the chair of SDTC?
Annette Verschuren
I don't know exactly the date. It was a couple of times, I think, he spoke to me about this, as did his policy adviser, I believe, as well.
Conservative
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
They called you to see if you would do this?
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Your testimony, or at least what's reflected in the Ethics Commissioner's report in your interview there, also said that the government approached you. Is that correct?
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
However, Minister Bains, when he appeared before this committee, said he had nothing to do with the appointment and that he had been given a list from PCO and that you had applied. Is that true? Had you applied before you spoke with Minister Bains, or after?
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That clarifies a lot of things about Minister Bains' testimony here and the cover-up on this.
Now, if I could ask you a few questions, while I appreciate that you appreciate the conflict of interest commissioner's very narrow review of the circumstances, the conflict of interest commissioner just testified here that actually he didn't cover all of the conflicts that were identified by the Auditor General in her report. Indeed, he did not say that there were two; it was confirmed here there were 24 instances of conflict of interest for yourself, not two.
Do you agree that you had a conflict of interest at least 24 times?
Annette Verschuren
Mr. Chair, I accept the commissioner's findings, just as he accepted in his report that I acted in good faith on legal advice and on the established board practices that predated my tenure.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Yes, and we have testimony from the former president, Leah Lawrence, who said before this committee that when she tried to improve the governance structure and governance policies, you as the head of the board, and the board itself, rejected those attempts.