Evidence of meeting #134 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Perkins.
I have no other speakers on my list, which brings us to a vote on the motion tabled this morning by MP Rempel Garner.
(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)
The motion is defeated, which brings us back to our regularly scheduled programming.
I recognize Mr. Masse.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to move the following motion:
That the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology undertake a study on the issue of credit card practices and regulations, following recent concerns about the high interest rates, excessive fees, and consumer protection. This study should include, but not be limited to, the following areas:
a. interest rates and examining of the impact of high credit card interest rates on Canadian consumers and potential measures to cap or regulate these rates;
b. fees and charges and an analysis of various fees associated with credit cards, including late payment fees, annual fees, and foreign transaction fees, and how these fees affect consumer finances;
c. consumer protections and a review of these measures related to credit cards, with a focus on improving transparency in credit card terms, interest rates, and fees;
d. predatory lending practices, to investigate predatory lending practices within the credit card industry, and recommendations for stricter regulations to prevent exploitation of consumers;
e. financial literacy, with consideration of the role of financial literacy in helping consumers manage credit card debt, and potential initiatives to enhance financial education;
f. regulatory oversight, including an assessment of the effectiveness of existing regulatory frameworks overseeing credit card companies, and potential impacts to ensure fair and transparent practices.
The study should be no fewer than four meetings and include consultations with relevant stakeholders, including financial experts, consumer advocacy groups, and representatives from the credit card industry.
I would like to speak to the motion when I can.
Liberal
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity to table the motion and make this representation right now because it is germane to how Canadians are experiencing everything from the cost of living but also economic fairness and, I would also argue, privacy.
On the motion, I'm open to amendments if there is considerations for improving the motion. No motion is perfect. Definitely, if there's interest to follow through on this, it can actually be more specific in terms of certain aspects or highlight other things.
I noted in our previous debate some of the work I've tried in the past with credit cards and that there have been some effective measures that have taken place. We've been able to shame them into practices that are more consistent with other countries. My hope is to have some type of a focus here in this committee, because it's going to take more than just one individual member of Parliament, regardless of political affiliation, to bring some fairness and accountability.
I'll conclude with this because I am really sincere about the approach to this. Australia actually has an entirely different process from Canada, where there's regulation in terms of the interest that they can apply and also the interest that they can change on consumers. That's just one model that's out there, and it's different from what we experience here. In fact, their rates are significantly lower.
On top of that, I want to conclude with this. We all just think about the major credit cards right now in terms of Visa, MasterCard, the ones that you pull out of your wallet on a regular basis, but there are also credit fees and credit cards that go up to 30%. They can be from furniture stores and other places you go to get financing from. That is absolutely unacceptable. It's often to induce people to pay zero interest now, and then it sets them up for failure later on and puts them at rates that are just absolutely nothing more than obscene and theft, especially for working class people. It sets them up on a purchasing point in terms of seducing them into thinking that, yes, you can get your new washing machine and you can get your new fridge and you can get your different things and not have to pay for a full year. However, later on, it comes due, and if in that time somebody's lost a job, somebody's gotten sick or so forth and the income of the family has changed, they're then stuck with a 30% to 40% sometimes interest rate on these things and the purchases they've made.
For all those different reasons, I'm hoping we can shed a little bit of light on this and get some relief for Canadian consumers. I don't want to take a lot of the committee's time with this, but I think that if we scope it we can actually get some really good results. I'm hoping that I get the support of my colleagues because I have in the past brought fraud issues to this table and this is similar to that vein. I haven't asked for a lot at this committee with regard to time. I've been very respectful about the agendas of those who have brought their things forward. I'm really just eager to get at this because I don't know how long this Parliament will last. It could last another year. It could last another day. I don't know. All I know is that these rates are going to continue to be a burden on people, and it's about time that they actually had some accountability in this place.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the committee for its time.
Liberal
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
I am not talking about the content of this motion, but it's a good one.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
I'm sorry, Mr. Arya. I missed the order.
You are correct, Ms. Rempel Garner. I'm sorry.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Thank you, Chair.
To build on what Mr. Masse said, colleagues, if you look at the total consumer debt of Canadians, it has rapidly and exponentially grown, particularly over the last 10 years. The debt-to-disposable income ratio of most Canadians is now, I think, a record. It's almost 200%. It's particularly acute within gen Z. Many gen Z Canadians are living entirely on their credit cards. They're loaded with student debt and can't pay rent.
We're now in a situation where Canadians are forced to live on their credit cards more. I think the motion uses the term “predatory lending practices”. I would have to agree. There are some predatory lending practices in here. Given how many Canadians are now living on their credit cards due to inflation, a high tax burden and the housing crisis, I think it is very incumbent upon this committee to look at the structure of how government allows lenders to profit on the backs of those Canadians.
I would just add, particularly given the changes in Canada's mortgage rules announced by the government last week, that the changes in the mortgage rules will exponentially add to the Canadian debt load over the next 30 years. I think history will look back on that change as a fundamental transformation on generational debt.
Just as an aside, Chair, the fact that the finance minister was like, “This is the best thing ever.” I'm like, “For banks, for banks...it was the best thing ever for banks.” I'll just say this: It's truly been remarkable to watch the Liberal Party become the party of the banks.
I fully support this motion. I look forward to litigating how much money the Canadian government should be allowing credit card companies to make off the backs of Canadians they're forcing to pay double the cost for housing, more for everything. Giddy-up. I love this motion. Let's do it.
Liberal
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I don't have any issues with the content of the motion, but is the motion itself relevant to our committee? Is it not the finance committee that should deal with this?
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Mr. Arya, I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Masse.
If you want to answer, I'll give you the floor quickly.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you.
I do appreciate that. It's a fair question because at times our committee overlaps with other things, but this is an industry issue because it's across the board and it also involves regulation. It's not just percentages. It also involves the Privacy Commissioner and so forth, so I do appreciate that. However, what happens sometimes in this place, and I've seen this at industry committee, is that some stuff gets punted over to finance where later on it doesn't get the coverage it needs, especially when they have budgets and other things. It's seen as just that, as a numbers issue.
This, to me, is broad-range industry abuse that's taking place, and it's a competition issue, which involves the Competition Bureau. That's how I pushed it before with the Capital One issue. I wrote the competition commissioner for that. For those reasons, I believe it's in-house for us to deal with. We have kind of dealt with some of those things before. We had the first one of your studies, Mr. Chair, with regard to financing and so forth. We have had that before. We've touched on these things that have led to other committees kind of copycatting us later on so, if somebody wants to copycat us later on this, I'm okay with that, but I really believe it's industry-wide.
I thank the member for that. The Competition Bureau, the Privacy Commissioner and it being industry-wide is why it belongs in-house here.
Liberal
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am totally in favour of this motion, not only for consumers, but also for small- and medium-sized businesses. In recent years, we've had the opportunity to hear the grievances of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business as well as chambers of commerce across Canada regarding credit card fees, as well as all the other fees and penalties involved. It's a reality that SMEs are experiencing and it's been weighing on their competitiveness for a number of years.
So I fully agree with this motion.
September 19th, 2024 / 9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Masse, for giving notice of this on Monday and tabling it today. I won't prolong the discussion other than to say we agree with it. As you said, I think this has been given short shrift. Everybody says, “Put stuff forward at finance committee.” The finance committee has 52 pre-budget consultation meetings and nothing can wedge in between. That's important work.
I would like to propose an amendment to the motion.
The amendment would be to leave everything there as is but to add a new sentence where the last sentence ends with “consumer advocacy groups, and representatives from the credit card industry”. We'd add “and that the committee begin consideration of this study within 14 days following the adoption of this motion.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Okay. We have an amendment proposed by MP Perkins, so we'll first deal with the amendment.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Yes, it's pretty straightforward.
Do we have any speakers on the amendment?
I have Mr. Patzer on the amendment.