Industry Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Good afternoon and happy Monday, everyone.

I now call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 135 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Before we begin, I kindly ask all the participants here in Ottawa to read the guidelines on the use of microphones and earpieces. This is for everyone’s health and safety, especially our interpreters, to whom I extend my thanks, by the way.

I wish to remind you that, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C‑27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

I would like to welcome back today Samir Chhabra, director general, Privacy and Data Protection Branch, who is—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

There's no translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Apparently, the interpretation is not working. I’ll continue speaking in French, just so that they give me the… okay, it’s working.

As I was saying, with us again today, from the Department of Industry, is Mr. Samir Chhabra, director general of the Market Framework Policy Branch. With him is Ms. Runa Angus, senior director of the Innovation Strategies and Policies Sector.

Thank you very much for joining us again on this Monday afternoon.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

It's not working.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Is interpretation working now, Mr. Turnbull? Are you on the right channel? I’m trying to find out about the others.

Is it working for you, Mr. Perkins?

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'm getting it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Very well.

As I was saying, we are now continuing our review of Bill C‑27 where we left off. As you know, we were on amendment CPC-9.

Mr. Turnbull has the floor.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

In an effort to hopefully work very productively today and on other days, and in consideration of some of the other motions that have been put forward, in particular the one from Mr. Masse, which I think we all supported last time, I would like to move the following motion, which is to suggest a program or schedule for some of our time over the coming weeks.

I'll read it into the record, and then we will send it to the clerk. We will also send this all by email shortly after that, with translation in both official languages.

I move:

As relates to the committee's future business, it be agreed that:

i. The committee dedicate its regular meetings on September 23 and 26, 2024, to consideration of Bill C-27;

ii. The Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, and officials, appear at committee no later than Thursday, October 10, 2024, for two hours, on the subject of the minister's mandate;

iii. Notwithstanding the minister's appearance, that the committee dedicate its regular meetings during the weeks of September 30 and October 7, 2024, to the study proposed by MP Masse, on the issue of credit card practices and regulations; and that witness lists be submitted by each party by Friday, September 27, 2024, by 4 p.m. EST; and,

iv. That the committee resume consideration of Bill C-27 as of Monday, October 21, 2024, and that consideration of the bill be uninterrupted by any other study until the completion of clause-by-clause by the committee.

That's what I would like to propose. I think it accommodates two of the requests that were made by other committee members, which I thought were quite reasonable and around which I think we, as a committee, achieved a relative degree of consensus. One was the appearance of the minister for two hours, which, committee members will be happy to hear, we've identified we would be able to do before October 10. The other is to have no less than, I think, four meetings on Mr. Masse's motion on credit card practices and regulations, which we also agreed with and thought would be good, but we don't want it to take away from moving forward on Bill C-27, given that we've been at a bit of an impasse.

We are working and looking to hopefully use the time away from Bill C-27 for a couple of weeks to work with other parties constructively and negotiate a path forward on Bill C-27. All of us, over many months, have remarked how important that bill is, so we are looking to use that time constructively and, in the interim, to have the minister appear and also prioritize Mr. Masse's suggested study.

That's the effort here: to work constructively with all of our colleagues and account for some of the other priorities that were brought up in the last meeting. I hope the motion will be well received by the committee. We'll send it around by email.

Originally, we had in the motion that we would, hopefully, move past amendment CPC-9 temporarily, but given the way we worded it in our draft, we realized that wasn't going to be consistent with procedural practice because we would have to move past the whole clause, which we didn't feel was important. I have made the deletion myself. We'll send around the final wording to you in a few moments.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Okay.

It's a fairly lengthy motion. There is just one thing about it, and we'll discuss it as a committee. For witnesses on the credit card study, ideally, if it's possible, send the names earlier than Friday, September 27. I know Mr. Masse has sent his witnesses, and Mr. Perkins is about to send his, so to the Bloc and the Liberals, please send the names of your witnesses as soon as possible. It gives the clerk more time to send the invitations for that first meeting.

I think the email is being sent around now.

Mr. Perkins, do you want to suspend?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

That is what I was about to propose so that members can read it and think about it. We'll come back in about five minutes.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Colleagues, the white smoke has emerged, and I think we're ready to resume.

We still have the motion by Mr. Turnbull, so I'll recognize Mr. Masse and then Mr. Perkins.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to support the motion.

We had some informal discussions, and I know there's a concern about the last part and making sure we focus on that, but it won't stop us if there is an emergency or if something else comes up. I appreciate the parliamentary secretary bringing this forward, given that we could go around in circles on some of this material, and we'll be stopped from doing that.

Also, obviously, I'm very interested in the credit card study. It's something I've been after for a while in terms of having more accountability, and I appreciate the time that we'll put into that.

I also try to appreciate that we've worked a lot on Bill C-27. I think that all parties here have been trying to find their way through this. It's historic, especially the issue of artificial intelligence. That aside, we've done a lot of stuff on the privacy aspect and we seem to be stuck at one particular point on the tribunal. If there's time to fix that in a way that's comfortable, I think that is better than trying to work through it with the officials here in real time, as opposed to a proper plan coming back.

For those reasons, I'll support the motion. I appreciate the nature and tone of this discussion, because this committee has historically worked really well together. We've had some moments recently on a few things, but at the same time, I'd like to spend my time here wisely, and I think this is a good program for going forward, so I'll be supporting the motion. If we do have an emergency or something else pops up in the interim, this doesn't stop a member from raising that issue.

I get the intent and why it's in there, and we'll deal with it as we go forward.

With that, I say thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Perkins, you now have the floor.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, MP Turnbull.

From our perspective, obviously, we always say that the committee is master of its own domain. It can always change this if it wants to, and I'm okay with the first three items.

I believe we need to find time in the schedule to do two things on MP Masse's credit card study. One would be to have the time to determine whether or not we need more than four meetings, because we did say—and the motion for the credit card study says this—at least four meetings. I think we have the flexibility in this committee to say, “Okay, we have more witnesses and more testimony we want to hear.” Plus, obviously, there is the planning of the report; the development of that study needs to be built in as well.

On the fourth item, I would be more comfortable if, after the part of the sentence that says “uninterrupted by any other study”, I could propose an amendment that says, “unless otherwise determined by the committee” so that it's clear the committee has options and that we've not agreed to just block ourselves out ad infinitum on Bill C-27 when we have other items that come up on the credit card study or may come up in the future.

Mr. Chair, I would propose that amendment to this motion, just off the top of my head. I don't know if we have anything that we can send to the clerk so that it's in both languages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I think that's fairly straightforward. I don't think there needs to be anything sent in writing.

You've heard the amendment proposed by Mr. Perkins. Are there any comments on the amendment that has been proposed by Mr. Perkins?

Mr. Turnbull, go ahead.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Technically, I think it's a bit redundant, because it's already implied that the committee can do whatever it deems is its will, but I also don't think having it in there hurts or detracts from our getting to an agreement. I just think it's already implied. You already said it, but you're formalizing it in the actual wording of the motion. I don't particularly have a problem with it.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm bringing back the fashion statement of suspenders and a belt at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Okay, so I gather we have consent for this amendment around the committee table.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Now we'll go back to the motion.

Are you done, Mr. Perkins?

I have Monsieur Garon up next.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Very quickly, I want to say I intend to vote in favour of Mr. Perkins’s motion. I think it’s pragmatic.

I think what we experienced at committee shows that certain elements, such as amendment CPC‑9 and the tribunal, are problematic. We therefore need time to think about it if we all want to attain the same objective, especially regarding the first part of Bill C‑27, which protects personal data. We may have some differences of opinion when it comes to the ways of attaining this objective, but I think we can do it.

I want to thank the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Turnbull.

I think it’s a great sign of openness, especially since we will be able to use our time intelligently for a study that, in my opinion, is nonpartisan and consensus-based. So, that’s already a very good thing.

I hope this spirit of openness on everyone’s part will remain active so that we can find a way forward. We are all thinking about it. I still think we can do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Since no one else seems to want the floor, I concur that the motion as amended by Mr. Perkins is unanimously passed by the committee.

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Just so we are clear, by the terms of the motion, given that next Monday is the National Day of Reconciliation, we won't be sitting, so the first meeting on the credit card study will be next Thursday, unless the minister is available to appear—we'll take him when he is—so I'd appreciate it if parties could send the names of their witnesses at the earliest possible time, ideally by this Wednesday.

Now we're back to CPC-9 and Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

It is about another matter. It's not yet related to CPC-9. I just want to ask to provide clarification.

I noticed earlier today that there was a communication that came in to the committee from, I believe, Paliare Roland. I don't know who that is, but I guess it's a law firm that sent a clarification to the clerk. I don't know whether all committee members have had the chance to review it.

It's from Ms. Verschuren. I think it clarifies that Ms. Verschuren did apply for her role as the chair of the board of SDTC, and I'll just note that point in case my colleagues across the way there haven't seen that communication.

If you don't mind, maybe I could just read that into the record, just so it's—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have not moved the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

We're on Bill C-27. I don't think, given that the communication's been sent to all committee members, that it's necessarily—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

It was sent to all committee members, then.