Industry Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I know I'm out of time, but I have just one quick point on what you mentioned earlier with these new apps and going after millennials and so forth.

A lot of that's targeted, so they don't even do their own grocery shopping. That's done for them by something else—by a third party or whatever. That's basically on the TV ads—to stay at home, party with your friends and get your groceries delivered to you. That also comes with buy now, pay later as the primary way of paying for these things.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you have the floor.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to use my time to move a motion that I hope we can dispose of quickly. I gave notice of it on Tuesday.

I move:

That, following testimony from banking executives, the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology encourages the Competition Bureau to investigate potential anti-competitive behaviour in Canada’s e-Transfer ecosystem, and if deemed necessary, the broader electronic payments industry in general, and that the committee report its concerns to the House.

I'll speak very briefly on this motion, Chair. I think we were all shocked by the testimony earlier this week by a financial executive, who also serves on the Interac board of directors, who stated that there was in fact a tiered volume pricing system for Interac e-transfer fees that likely disadvantages smaller financial institutions. That obviously poses competitive issues for new entrants into the market, potential new financial services companies, but it also has an impact on consumers.

I think the appropriate vehicle for this, especially given the Competitions Bureau's new power, is to ask or encourage.... I know that the Competition Bureau sets their own agenda. That's why I use the word “encourage”. It's just a mark of multipartisan concern on this issue. I also would just note for precedent that earlier this year the Minister of Industry did write to the Competition Bureau to look at the issue of digital wallets. There is precedent for this. The word is “encourage”. I just would like a show of unity within the committee here that we are all concerned about this behaviour. It doesn't particularly deal with the government right now, but certainly I think a Competition Bureau review of this particular issue could provide some recommendations or findings for which we could legislate in the future.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Ms. Rempel Garner.

The next speaker on my list is Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I want to very briefly say I support this motion and I appreciate my colleague bringing this forward, and I think it is appropriately worded. I've written a number of times to the Competition Bureau on different issues and this has been done the proper way. I hope that we can get this passed and thanks to the member for bringing this forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleague for tabling the motion. There’s obviously a generalized problem with competitiveness in Canada. There are monopolies, oligopolies. We could therefore table a motion of this type for just about every sector of the economy, which would increase competitiveness and productivity.

That being said, as my colleague Mr. Masse said, I think this motion is appropriate and we will support it in its current version.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

That’s great. I am proud of this committee.

Ms. Rempel Garner, thank you for presenting this motion with complete impartiality. As the chair, I find it excellent.

Mr. Turnbull, you have the floor.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I think this is a relatively good motion. I have only one issue, which is that the committee report its concerns to the House. I think we could get unanimous consent if we just remove that. I would just propose an amendment therefore to leave it as just saying “industry in general” period. I think that that's more than sufficient.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

There is a proposed amendment Mr. Turnbull that the motion ends at “in general”.

Mr. Masse, on the amendment.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I don't support the amendment. I understand the interest to do that, but this motion does allow us, though, to speak about this issue in the House. Depending on what we get, it will give us more opportunity to discuss things in the chamber on this issue in particular. That's my only concern about eliminating that component of it. I see this also as part of communication to Canadians and constituents about financial literacy and so forth with this. That's why I have a concern with the amendment. I understand the reason for it, but that's why I don't think I can support that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Originally, when I read the motion, I worried and wondered if it could undermine work on Bill C‑27 when it comes back. Indeed, we all hope it comes back. Like my NDP colleague, I understand it will be necessary to talk about it in the House.

I am very enthusiastic about the idea of including this part in the motion, because it will encourage our Conservative colleagues to talk about something else in the House, Mr. Chair. For us to talk about this motion in the House, the Conservatives will have to break the deadlock in the House.

So, if it can support democracy, Mr. Chair, I support the motion as written.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Since no one else wishes to speak to Mr. Turnbull’s amendment, I will ask the clerk to proceed with a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5.)

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

This brings us to the main motion without amendment. Do I have any other speakers? No. Do I need to proceed with a vote or do I have the committee’s unanimous consent in favour of the motion?

Do we need a vote on this, or...?

I see general consensus on the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you. The motion is adopted.

Thank you very much, Ms. Rempel Garner.

You can still go with your questions. I'll give you the time.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I guess I'll cede my time to Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Professor Charlebois, I was reading your latest food security index report. A couple of other items stand out. The first one I'd like to ask you about is the change in behaviour. I note that in figure 2 in your report, to the question, “In response to recent food price inflation, which of the following changes have you made...?”, only 6.3% of Canadians said they haven't changed behaviour. They gave a variety of reasons that they have changed it, the number one being seeking out more discounts. I presume that's because of food inflation.

I wonder if you could comment on that particular item.

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Yes. That's a very low percentage, to be honest. We've been following food prices for 20 years. Many Canadians have not changed behaviour until very recently. Because of food prices, it really has forced them to look at coupons and credit as well very differently, and at different locations as well.

The other thing is that if you look at the dashboard we have on page 3 of that particular report, to me it's telling about what's going on, particularly with the younger generations and how they spend their money on food.

To go back to your comment, Mr. Masse, about using apps, there seems to be this notion that spending money on food has to be easy, especially with the younger generations. Food retail sales are flat and dropping per capita in Canada. Most people aren't talking about this.

Yes, you heard me; despite inflation, food retail sales per capita are dropping. Food service sales—restaurants—are increasing and at a record high.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Quick-service.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's food service and restaurants. Who actually orders through apps to order food delivered to homes? It's the younger generations. They use Uber Eats and all that.

That certainly is concerning. Right now Canadians are spending $186.95 per capita on food service per month.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

On that particular question, what we've seen over the years when people have challenges paying for food and they make that shift from fresh produce and stuff to restaurant food, is it not an increase in quick-service food—in other words, McDonald's fast food, which is much cheaper than going to the grocery store in a lot of cases?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

In some cases that's correct, but you have to add taxes and delivery charges and all that. Again, that's why I think it's quite concerning. How people spend money on food is concerning. I don't think they understand how much more things are costing at the grocery store. If you go to the grocery store, you're self-educating yourself in terms of the cost of living and feeding yourself and your family. If you're continually or often using apps on credit, you don't necessarily appreciate how much you can buy with the dollars you have.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I wonder if this has changed. One of the shocking things in figure 6—maybe not surprising to people these days, given food inflation—is that affordability is the biggest chunk of factors in making a decision on what to buy. It's at 47.3%. Nutrition is only a little over 24% as a primary reason.

Has that changed in the last few years? Have we seen a flip?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

No. The gap between the two has increased, however. Right now, affordability is at 47%. Nutrition, which is second, is at 24%. We've never seen such a gap.

Our next report is in April, so we'll see exactly how things are changing in Canada. Right now, that gap is incredibly high. In other words, what's going on at the retail store is that a lot of people are making nutritional compromises. They're going to the centre of the store, and they're leaving the periphery of the store, where the fresh products are.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In figure 5, which you referred to earlier, was that borrowing dipping into savings? Those aren't meant for buying food or everyday essentials. Borrowing for food is higher and higher as you go through the generations. It's higher with the younger generation. The few “great generation” who are left have the smallest, at 13%. When you get down to generation Z, 46% are taking whatever little savings...or borrowing money to pay for food.

Have you seen a gradual, or not-so-gradual, change in those numbers?