Industry Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Krista McWhinnie]

If there's evidence of them not being able to enter due to conduct that Interac is engaged in, that's exactly the type of thing that would fall within our provisions.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Ms. McWhinnie.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, MP Perkins.

MP Gaheer.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

I have a question for Mr. Perkins, actually.

Mr. Perkins, were you talking about credit cards or debit cards?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I was holding up a debit card.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Okay, I just wanted to ask about that.

My question for the witnesses is this. You mentioned that you looked at ATM withdrawal fees the last time you looked at Interac. What came out of that? It's still very expensive. I think it was $5 to withdraw any amount the last time I tried to withdraw from an ATM.

[Matthew Boswell]

It was more about the access to Interac's inter-member network by players other than the charter banks that created Interac in 1984. It wasn't so much about the fees they were charging. It was exclusionary conduct—not letting others join the network, or the fees they charged them to join. It wasn't so much about the per-transaction fee. That wasn't an issue in this case.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

From recent memory, I think if it's your own bank that you're using the ATM for at a grocery store or wherever, you're charged a lower fee, but if it's a different bank from the card that you're using, you're charged a higher fee. I think that's something that's worth looking into when dealing with Interac.

I know it's a preliminary investigation that you're looking at. In terms of Interac, is it for profit or is it not for profit? How arm's-length is it? Is it at arm's length from the banks? Do they have a stake in Interac?

[Matthew Boswell]

Yes. My understanding is that there are 13 board members on Interac. Eight of them are representatives of the financial institutions that were the founders of Interac. Four of them are independent directors, and the CEO is also a board member. Interac is owned by its members, as I understand it, which are made up of Canada's large banks, as well as Desjardins, Credit Union Central, and I don't know the status of Canada Trust. It is owned by them.

It is my understanding, just from looking into the issue a bit in advance of coming here.... From our consent agreement, when it was still in place, the independent committee oversaw the ATM withdrawal and debit point-of-sale aspect of the business exclusively. That could only be done on a cost-recovery basis, so it was not for profit. In terms of other aspects of Interac, I'm not clear on whether their cost recovery is for profit or not for profit.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, MP Gaheer.

I have MP Rempel Garner, Mr. Savard-Tremblay, and then Mr. Généreux.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

First of all, Mr. Chair, I should apologize to my colleague Mr. Perkins for being a mama bear. I was worried about him, but my worries were unfounded.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm glad somebody is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I was personally hoping he would give his card to the chair for verification.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I know, right? There we go.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It was Bernard's card, I have to confess.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Commissioner Boswell.

The abuse of dominance provisions are fairly new. They've mostly come into place under the most recent provisions of the Competition Act. Is that correct?

[Matthew Boswell]

They've been in existence, but what happened with the most recent amendments to the act was that they were significantly streamlined. That makes it less complex, if I can say that, for the bureau to get a prohibition order. That is the court telling a company to stop certain types of behaviour.

They were streamlined, and that was something that we recommended during the government's consultation on fixing the Competition Act.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Are there any decisions, in retrospect, that the bureau took, particularly in the financial sector, that you think as a committee we might want to revisit in light of the streamlining of those provisions?

[Matthew Boswell]

I can't think of one off the top of my head.

I don't know if my colleagues have any.

[Krista McWhinnie]

Nothing specific comes to mind. We're in the process of doing this work as well, given that we have this significantly strengthened provision, to look back at whether there was conduct that didn't meet this before that might now.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'll close with this question, Mr. Chair.

If there are findings to that effect, and you feel that those findings would benefit us in terms of potentially directing our work, would you be willing to table that with the committee, if appropriate?

[Matthew Boswell]

That's a tricky one to answer, because we may decide to do other things if we see a different...if we put the lens of the new law on conduct that's still going on that we didn't take action on before.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Understood, thank you.

That's all, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, you have the floor.