Industry Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Krista McWhinnie]

I don't have that information.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Can I have that provided possibly in the future to the committee so we can add it to the testimony?

[Krista McWhinnie]

Just to be clear, that's not information I currently have, myself, to provide. When we do collect that type of information, it is as part of an investigation.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Okay, so it is not shareable.

[Krista McWhinnie]

No, it is not—not until we are in a position to publish something about our findings in pursuit of the administration or enforcement of the act, because that's what dictates what we can share.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Does that go for all three of you?

[Anthony Durocher]

That is correct.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Okay.

Have there been any instances where fees have been increased in a coordinated manner across different providers?

[Matthew Boswell]

At this point in time, I don't have any information, and I don't believe my colleagues have information, with respect to that in this particular situation.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

In terms of exclusivity and gatekeeping, do any major financial institutions or service providers engage in exclusivity agreements that limit consumer choice for e-transfer services?

[Matthew Boswell]

Once again, I don't have any specific information with respect to that at the current time, other than to point back, once again, to our case against Interac, where we had a consent agreement until 2020 where we were trying to address exclusionary conduct by them.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Are there any other comments, or are you all in the same boat? Okay.

Are there practices that effectively prevent third party payment platforms or fintech companies from integrating with existing e-transfer systems?

[Anthony Durocher]

I think it's early days on a preliminary investigation. I think these are the types of issues that we would collect the facts and the evidence in respect of.

I would note, just coming back to the notion of the real-time rail, that open access to real-time rail highlights the importance of having competitive options to challenge incumbents in any sector. Open banking and open access to real-time rail are very important steps that can be taken to improve the conditions for competition.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

With respect to Interac's dominance, Interac is the dominant player in Canada's e-transfer system. I think we've heard a lot about that. Does this dominance pose concerns regarding competition as well as innovation?

[Krista McWhinnie]

On the law enforcement side, as I was explaining before, being dominant is not a violation of the Competition Act. Even having a monopoly in Canada is not a violation; it's what you do with that. Is the dominant entity doing something to protect itself from having to face competition from its rivals?

Perhaps to be clear, just because there is not a violation of the Competition Act, that doesn't necessarily mean that a market is working well from a competition perspective. I think there are lots of markets where competition can be improved. Especially in an oligopoly-type setting, where you have concentration and high barriers to entry, it's sometimes the case that firms competing in that type of market structure don't need to violate the Competition Act in order to reach mutually beneficial outcomes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

There's a second part of that question with respect to the competitive dynamics. Are there current competitive dynamics in the e-transfer ecosystem that are stifled based on innovation as well as the development of alternative payment solutions?

[Krista McWhinnie]

On the law enforcement side, that's exactly the type of thing we'd be seeking to determine in an investigation. I think my colleague Anthony Durocher has also been talking about certain recommendations we've made to policy-makers on the real-time rail and open banking that might be able to better open that up and promote innovation.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Are there any other comments? Okay.

I think, for the most part, Mr. Chair, we've heard a lot of testimony, but there's also some that we haven't heard yet. Going into our future meetings, I think it would be prudent to invite others who may be able to answer some of those questions.

If you don't mind, I would like to put a motion on the floor, for unanimous consent, to invite to an upcoming meeting the CEO of Rogers, Tony Staffieri—this would be on November 28—as well as the CEO of Bell Canada, Mirko Bibic.

I'm sorry. I believe Mr. Staffieri from Rogers is already coming here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Yes. He is coming on Thursday, but not on this, of course.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Okay.

I would like to add the CEO of Bell Canada, Mirko Bibic, and the CEO of Telus, Darren Entwistle, and have them appear here to answer questions about allegations of price increases made without consumers' knowledge.

I'm simply asking for UC so that we can move forward.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Two thumbs up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I see Mr. Masse.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Mr. Perkins is very happy about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I just want to hear from Mr. Masse, given that it's his motion to begin with.

Go ahead.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for that. I had originally suggested this earlier, but since that time I've learned that Telus doesn't do that practice. Bell does. I'm wondering whether we should just have Bell and Rogers in front of us at that time, as opposed to including Telus. They're not part of that practice, from what I understand.