Industry Committee on April 1st, 2022

[Andrew Fursman]

Sure. The quick answer is yes. I think that, although qubit count is not the only thing that we should be thinking about, if you don't have enough qubits, it's like not having enough pickets in your fence—you either can or you can't solve the problem you're looking to solve.

There are many things scaling up on the technology side. We're currently, as I think you heard earlier, in sort of the 100-qubit regime and we're looking to get towards sort of the millions-of-qubits regime going forward. That will take some time still.

I think there is a lot of time for us to be thinking about everything from our training programs to building up the domestic production of talent and attracting foreign talent to our universities at the graduate level. I think there is a lot of opportunity to take the fledgling efforts being made in Canada and to make sure there is the maximum amount of interaction between universities and these companies, which are really the only places in Canada where you can get practical hands-on experience with the types of devices that are being built outside of university labs.

I am particularly fond of how the Mitacs organization is able to bridge that together and work closely, and I think these are very important pieces of what we are looking to do.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I like Mitacs as well.

I'm sorry, but I don't have much time.

What are your thoughts on strategic planning for manufacturing capacity as well as on broadband and energy infrastructure? How does that come into play in the quantum world?

[Andrew Fursman]

I think those items are not directly relevant to the current process within quantum computing, but I do think there's the possibility that advanced computing will impact all of those areas you've discussed. It's just important to recognize that at the moment there is nothing we can do better, faster or cheaper with today's quantum computers compared to what's possible classically, but we expect that to change within some of these narrow areas we're focusing on. I think it's important to recognize whether or not the specific areas you're looking at are actually directly connected to developments within quantum computing.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to direct my next questions to Ms. Simmons.

You brought forward six points. I'm going to start with your point about reaping the rewards. Can you expand on that a little bit? How can our future generations in Canada benefit from today's research? Is it through IP protection? What can legislators do to make sure we get a piece of the pie?

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Thank you so much.

Yes, I think procurement contracts is a big one, but within the government you need to have a talented due-diligence team. There's no single point of quantum due diligence within the government right now, so there's no point in even having procurement discussions, because there's no way for the government to navigate this.

I think we should be procuring infrastructure on quantum networks so we can secure coast-to-coast communications. I think we should be buying some of the computers so that these students can train on them.

In terms of IP, I can mention them again, but I do think there are things that can be done from a policy perspective to insist that research contracts disclose all those funding mechanisms. There's a lot of international money buying IP in Canada right now, and that's not being openly discussed. We also need to help firms with the post-quantum encryption transition.

Does that answer your question?

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Yes, it does, actually. Thank you.

On the salary front, you say that the salaries are perhaps five times or some number times what they're getting here in Canada, but the Canadian social environment, the medicare and all these social benefits do come into play to attract talent and to retain them. Is that right?

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Right, and I have no problem paying five times the Canadian national salary average for my quantum researchers—no problem whatsoever—but we need the procurement contracts so that we can go and raise the private.... Companies in this space are raising more money in single rounds than the entire national quantum strategy, right?

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

As they should, because—

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Right, and that's how private investment works—exactly—but private investment is only unlocked with contracts, really, so it's getting those contracts here. We're at a stage where it's very much like Kitty Hawk. I would say that quantum computers compared to classical computers are like flight compared to cars. They unlock completely different things, and the first time you have a flight taking off, it lasts maybe a couple of hundred metres and then lands. Without investment and industry to actually bring that to scale, you don't unlock satellites and large-scale.... There's so much—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's very helpful.

I have one more question that I want to get in. You talked about the talent retention immigration time frame. I would just want to put that in perspective. Then you talked about security issues. To do the due diligence on immigration, it takes time, right?

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Yes, sir.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

On talent retention, we have to show the open doors and whatnot, but it may not work in the same conversation if we're talking about security issues.

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Yes, sir.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Where do you see the balance? How do we balance these to make sure that we can attract and retain talent?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

It's a tough question.

I'll need a brief answer, Madam Simmons. We're out of time.

[Dr. Stephanie Simmons]

Absolutely: CSE and CSIS to screen applicants—to work/partner with the Canadian quantum industry and help them screen applicants, and once they're approved by CSE, fast-track them. Get them in there in under six weeks.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am standing in for Mr. Lemire, so I will be speaking today.

It's a pleasure to be here. Good afternoon to my fellow members. Good afternoon, as well, to the witnesses, and thank you for being here today.

My first questions are for Mr. McCauley.

I share your sense of pride, Mr. McCauley. You talked about how the University of Calgary was a major hub for research. The Université du Québec à Rimouski, a university in Quebec, has also made a name for itself as one of Canada's top research institutions among similar-sized universities.

I'd like you to help clear some things up for me about the state of science and research in Canada. I am looking at the brief submitted by the U15 Group of Canadian Research Universities, which includes the University of Calgary.

I'm trying to paint a picture of Canada's investments in research and development, especially through research chairs and universities.

It's clear from the brief that Canada is lagging behind. To put it bluntly, Canada is the only G7 country that has reduced its R and D spending over the past two decades. It is also the only country where the number of researchers has declined over the last six years. On top of that, Canada's ranking on the Global Innovation Index has dropped considerably. From 2001 to 2019, Canada went from eighth to 17th place on the Global Innovation Index. It is important to note that Canada's expenditures are not what they should be, making the country less attractive to researchers who want to use their talent to advance innovation and science.

As the vice-chancellor of the University of Calgary, how does that state of affairs affect you on a day-to-day basis?

[Dr. Edward McCauley]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the question.

Again, I'm on the board of Universities Canada, as well as a former board member of Mitacs, so I really support that. I was also part of the submission from the U15.

Our submissions from both Universities Canada and U15 actually are synonymous with many of the points that Dr. Simmons and also Dr. Broadbent made about the particular quantum area. We are a nation that needs to be able not only to support talent development, but also to be able to attract talent from outside the country, to nurture that talent. An additional piece is not to lose that talent. My university has lost some amazing investigators to Europe and to the U.S. in the quantum area in particular, which we would really like to retain here.

Canada has I think a very robust ecosystem for investing in people, and I would encourage the federal government to ramp up that investment, because talent really is our future. Whether it be in quantum or in other areas, it really is about talent. We have tremendous programs in the country to support undergraduate students. We also I think need a bigger investment in graduate students who are going to come here from around the world, work with us and, hopefully, as Dr. Simmons said, stay and provide contributions to the Canadian economy and the future growth.

It is about talent, making it easy for people to come, making it easy for people to stay, and making it easy to nurture the people we have. That, in essence, is supporting the Universities Canada and the U15 documentation on the submission for this budget.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

You talked about talent, but I'm talking about the reality in my region. In Quebec, more than 25% of people with Ph.D.'s, so one in four, do not have access to funding, and it's not due to a lack of expertise or projects. It's due to the fact that funding isn't available. Canada currently invests 1.57% of GDP, whereas its competitor, the U.S., invests 2.9%. At the end of the day, we are at the bottom of the global pack.

We have tremendous programs, as you mentioned, but we are not tending our garden, so it's hard to nurture talent.

What do you think, Mr. McCauley?

[Dr. Edward McCauley]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The tri-council agencies have requested additional funding to support growth across the country in a variety of areas. There is no doubt that the competition is severe, whether you're talking about NSERC, CIHR or SSHRC, for example, across the entire country.

Yes, an investment, I think, would be very much appreciated, once again to grow talent across the country, because that's what is producing the ideas we're going need to help build our very productive future and to support our aspirations for the various industries across the country. Therefore, an investment in talent and an investment in funding for research would benefit all Canadians.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

I again want to refer to the brief submitted by the U15 group. As the vice-chancellor of the University of Calgary, an institution that is highly research-oriented, you are ideally placed to talk about research. The research support fund is a key program, of course, but the funding formula penalizes universities that are research-intensive. It is those universities that are especially affected. On average, the funding rate across the U15 group of universities is 20%, which is the established threshold. The corresponding rate among universities in the U.S. is 52%.

Obviously, money is the biggest factor, but are there other gaps?

What actions would you want to see the federal government take to put Canada at the top of the pack and, ideally, to help universities of every size undertake research in their areas of expertise in a meaningful way?

[Dr. Edward McCauley]

Thank you. I appreciate the comment.

I was a professor at the University of California, so I know about the relative differences in investments between Canada and the U.S.

Canada is desperately in need of increasing investment in research support for universities, whether that be to support the direct costs of research from the federal government.... The rates you referred to are actually quite accurate.

Those, what are referred to as, indirect costs are very important for universities across the country, as far as Universities Canada or U15 go to actually support the aspect of research security. We talked about cybersecurity, which is very important for protecting our information, and participating in those discussions.

Federal government funding to help the research security in those areas would be very much appreciated and would enable Canada to keep up on the international stage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

We'll move now to MP Brian Masse.