Industry Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, and I appreciate that.

This goes back to my original questioning here. I'm still not finding the value for Canadians and others paying into this system of corporate expenditures and then paying the costs of actually transferring funds to pay for items.

As I finish, Mr. Chair, I think that where the committee and I, at the end of the day, are is thinking that it seems that this whole system is cooked in a way that really doesn't offer much productivity for Canadian economic development, consumers or businesses.

Again, the Stripe technology that's being used right now in the upwards of $10 billion to transfer funds is quite suspect in terms of value and returns.

I'll finish with this. It's quite convenient, when you look at this board of directors and what the Conservatives have raised, like Mark Carney, that the usual suspects end up on these types of boards and systems that are in place that cost us so much in the economy.

Mr. Collison, I appreciate your coming on and presenting the Stripe case here today, but I really don't find much value with regards to the costs Canadian businesses are paying for the services and products.

[Patrick Collison]

That's—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You're occupying your space in your market, which is totally dysfunctional, in my opinion.

[Patrick Collison]

John and I have been working on Stripe for 14 years, and I'm feeling rueful that my attempts to describe Stripe's value did not compel you. My marketing credentials will, I suppose, be revoked. However, if you ever want to chat more about what we do, I'd be happy to attempt to describe and convince you—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I don't think it's you, Mr. Collison. I think it's a systemic thing here. You've taken advantage of a space in the market system that has not had government regulation to protect Canadian consumers, and so forth. You've done a service that has market value because you're here for a reason. It's not on you, and it's not on Stripe. It's on our economic system of transferring funds in a virtual way versus a physical way that is creating the system problem we have, in my opinion.

Thank you. It's not your fault. You're just part of what's taking place. There's a false economy here, in my opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

One could argue, though, that it gives access to a much bigger market for Canadian businesses. There is no doubt that it provides value to businesses. The question is, are the reductions in fees passed along to small businesses? That's the gist of why we're here today. Definitely, small businesses having access to a worldwide market provides value—in my opinion, at least.

Mr. Perkins, the floor is yours.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Collison.

Mr. Collison, are you aware that, on November 25, this committee passed a motion—what's called a “documents production motion” in the Canadian Parliament—for Stripe to produce financials that we would see in camera? They would not be in public. My understanding is that we haven't received those as of today.

Can you update the committee on the progress of that?

[Patrick Collison]

Yes, I discussed this with the team yesterday. I know they're actively working on this and expect to have those materials to you quite soon.

Furthermore, even though my understanding is that we're not obligated to provide insight into Stripe's global financials—only into Stripe's Canadian subsidiary—in the spirit of being helpful, we are going to share some materials there, as well, because we want you all to have an accurate picture.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Well, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing those documents.

Mr. Chair, if I recall the motion, once we have them, we only have 30 days to examine them. We'll have to figure out how to do that on a parliamentary break.

I heard you, Mr. Collison, refer a couple of times to the increased cost. Your press release talks about the increased cost of the GST, but it's not really an increased cost. You were paying the GST, though there was a period of less than one year when you weren't, along with the other service providers, because of the court action of some of the banks. Then, the Government of Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency backfilled. You are actually still paying the tax you were paying all along, with a less-than-one-year holiday.

I'm having trouble understanding how the tax you have historically been paying would be the thing that keeps you from passing on the savings the government claims they're going to force folks to do.

I'll leave the question at that, right now, then come back to my second one.

[Patrick Collison]

Sure. My comment on the tax is simply that our total costs across Canadian businesses have increased rather than decreased over the last year.

On the blended system, generally, it's not about the taxes specifically. It's this idea that we want to be able to provide a bundle of services of increasing value over time at slightly decreasing cost, as inflation rose, at 30¢. We think it's important to be able to provide that simplicity and predictability to businesses.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

You also referred, in response to a question by MP Turnbull, to the fact that you had conversations quite recently with Minister Freeland about this.

Did you commit to Minister Freeland that you would reduce the costs? Was that the subject?

[Patrick Collison]

We discussed the costs. I also described Stripe's approach here and why we believe so strongly in the importance of the business friendliness of our blended payment scheme. I tried to describe it in approximately the same terms I've described it today.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Chair, earlier this week, as you know, we had the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Industry here. The Minister of Industry gave a very passionate presentation on how he would like Bill C-27 passed, as a Christmas present for him and Canadians, before Christmas.

In the spirit of Christmas and the holidays, I would like to suggest a way through this and help the minister along. I would like to seek unanimous consent to pass Bill C-27 with all amendments proposed by the opposition parties and the government today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I knew you would come up with a very reasonable proposition, Mr. Perkins, to get us through this.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I see we don't have unanimous consent. It's shocking.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will call Minister Champagne and tell him that his parliamentary secretary said no to passing the bill before Christmas.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I appreciate that, Mr. Perkins. I will relay the message.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'll relay it myself.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I see that both the minister and Mr. Perkins are very optimistic in what they can achieve.

I don't know if anyone else wants to speak. We are nearing the end of this meeting, so this would conclude the meeting for us.

I want to thank you, Mr. Collison, for joining us so early. We see behind you that the sun has risen on the west coast. Thanks for joining us. We appreciate your testimony.

[Patrick Collison]

Let me just say that even though we may have some different points of view on the optimal economic models, different categories, and so on, I understand that for all of you the questions come from the vantage point and the perspective of wanting to improve things for businesses, generally, and especially for small businesses, in particular.

Stripe very much shares that value. I appreciate your focus on the issues. Perhaps there will be areas we can work on together in the future, whether it's on real-time payments or anything else.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Collison.

It dawned upon me, listening to your testimony, that perhaps not everyone pays as much attention to Canadian political gossip in The Globe and Mail as we do here on the Hill.

Mr. Van Bynen, I see your hand is up.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Regarding that conversation, I know that with the federal government, we have an Ethics Commissioner who determines what's appropriate and inappropriate behaviour for members of Parliament. I want to clarify with Mr. Collison to confirm whether or not his corporation has a code of conduct for directors and a commissioner in charge of making sure there's appropriate behaviour by the directors and members of the board.

[Patrick Collison]

We require that board members disclose conflict of interest to the general counsel.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.