Industry Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Robin Shaban]

Yes. You hear that a lot from a lot of folks in the competition policy space: “The solution is just more enforcement. We need more money in the bureau. The bureau needs to go out and take more cases.” That's part of the solution, but again, if you don't have the right tools for addressing this anti-competitive conduct, you're just throwing money away. You're taking these investigations that don't actually lead to firms changing their behaviours, because the law just isn't there as an effective tool, especially in our more modern digital economy.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Excellent.

I'm going to move to the CFIB.

One thing I asked the Business Development Bank of Canada about was whether they had any interest in having a credit card for small businesses. I thought it was pretty interesting that they did a study. They didn't know when it was—they were supposed to get back to us—but it was a long time ago.

The Business Development Bank of Canada is supposed to be the lender of last resort when the private sector does not come to the table in an appropriate fashion. I thought for sure that there would be interest in at least a credit card that had proper fees. If the government is not willing to regulate this area and bring it under control, I'm a bit surprised that they wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity as a lender of last resort, so to speak.

I'm wondering what the CFIB thinks about that. I'd be interested to see whether or not there's support out there to even ask them to contact their members and do a poll like they did before and find out if that product is of interest. That might actually generate some sorely needed competition in this sector.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

My answer is that I don't know what our members would think of that. It would be something we would have to ask them. Their issue, of course, is more on accepting payments than it is on the credit card itself.

With regard to BDC, I agree with you. As a lender of last resort, they do a good job sort of trying to help businesses that can't find financing anywhere, and a credit card could be another option for them to offer that kind of financing for small businesses.

I don't know what they can really do on the “accepting payment” side of the equation. That's where it becomes a bit more tricky.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It's one of those things, though, that I'm hoping they are going to take seriously.

Even with the transition fees and transaction fees, I know a lot of small businesses that keep hopping among operators because of the games they have to play in having to change machinery and equipment and training. It's all a net negative. It really isn't about creating opportunity for them to be effective in business; it's about managing financial transactions that are, quite frankly, abusive.

With regard to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Monsieur Masse, I'll have to stop you here, because we're out of time.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

We'll get back to you.

Mr. Généreux, you have five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all the witnesses.

Ms. Shaban, you referred to a report. Could you tell us which report that is? We do not know exactly which report you are referring to. You have appeared before the committee previously, if I remember correctly. Is it a report prepared by the committee?

[Robin Shaban]

Yes. The report I keep referring to is a report that I, as well as two other colleagues, Vass Bednar and Ana Qarri, was commissioned to do by ISED.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

[Robin Shaban]

The nature of the report was an exploration of competition policy in data-driven markets, so it was looking at the impact of big data in competition policy and testing whether our Competition Act is fit to address these issues.

This report is available online on the Vivic research website. When I get back at my desk, I'll tweet it.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Yes. That would be perfect.

Ms. Pohlmann, you speak French, is that right?

A little bit?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

A bit, yes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Okay.

The carbon tax does not affect Quebec as much, but I would like to talk about it anyway. You gave two figures that I found very surprising. You said that SMEs paid 45% of the tax but that only 8% of the tax came back to them. That is an appalling and very large gap. The government keeps telling us ad nauseam that the program is neutral and that there are normally no costs to any businesses. You are telling us that that is not true.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

What I am saying is that of the carbon backstop that applies in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta—the carbon tax in those provinces—about 45% to 50% of that revenue actually comes from small and medium-sized businesses, as well as the municipalities, hospitals and schools, but they make up only about 5% of that amount. The rest is all small and medium-sized companies.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Okay, and they only get 8% back.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

They set aside 8% to 10% for that group, which was supposed to go into programs, but only one was ever created prior to the pandemic, and in order to access the program you had to invest $80,000 in your business to get any money back in the subsidy. It wasn't accessible to small companies. Since then, the money has just been sitting in government revenues. Nothing has come back to small businesses.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

That is interesting.

Mr. Blackburn, I am glad to see you today.

[Karl Blackburn]

Me too.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

With respect to the labour shortage, you answered the question from my colleague Mr. Lemire earlier by saying that Ontario was better positioned than Quebec concerning workers aged 55 to 64. What is the distinction?

Is it a tax distinction between Ontario and Quebec that allows Ontarians in that age group to stay at work longer?

[Karl Blackburn]

It is simply that the participation rate in that category of workers is higher than here, in Quebec. If we want to reach the same level, tax measures must be adopted. The Government of Quebec and the federal government would be able to do so. Unfortunately, they did not do so in the last two budgets, in Quebec or at the federal level, and yet, they were asked to.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

It was an election promise by the Liberals, and the Conservatives, to change the tax system to allow these people to remain at work longer.

[Karl Blackburn]

That is right.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You say that, even in budget 2022, the Liberals did not take that into account.

[Karl Blackburn]

In the budget that was tabled, there was no specific measure to encourage experienced workers to remain on the labour market.