Industry Committee on June 10th, 2022

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for National Marine Manufacturers.

There has been a fair amount of discussion here today already around the various taxes that people pay between the countries of Canada and the U.S., highlighting how uncompetitive Canada is already, even before this luxury tax comes in.

What I want to ask is specifically around B.C. We have, for example, Point Roberts, which is a U.S. municipality just minutes from Vancouver. I've heard concerns that with the luxury tax, Canadians can buy a boat in the U.S., literally just across the border, and keep it there at Point Roberts Marina so they don't have to pay the luxury tax. If we look at B.C., you're at 7% PST. It could be up to 12% for boats, depending on who sells it. You have 5% GST. You're at an average of at least 10% already, before the luxury tax.

Does this all simply make us less competitive? This study is about competitiveness. Have I laid that out correctly, and does this just make us less competitive?

[Sara Anghel]

Absolutely. That's what we've been trying to say all along. We are less competitive. It costs more here. There is the exchange rate, because most of the boats are built in the U.S., and now on top of the 12% or 13%, we're going to add another 10% and just destroy local manufacturing, destroy coastal community businesses. For dealers in British Columbia that do sell and are selling, 80% to 90% of the boats they are selling are above $250,000.

Again, it's great for those who can afford them. I'm not here to defend the rich yacht owner. I'm here to defend the middle-class Canadian who gets up in the morning and services that million-dollar boat. There are going to be fewer of them in our coastal communities, and those are the jobs that will suffer on top of the competitive issue.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to go now to the Canadian Institute of Plumbing and Heating.

In your opening testimony, one of the things that was mentioned was regulatory fragmentation across provinces and municipalities. I am presuming that refers to interprovincial trade barriers. I was wondering if you could expand on that a bit.

We know that Canada has the Canadian Free Trade Agreement with the provinces, which is supposedly being worked on, but we don't really hear of concrete updates. We hear that in spite of Red Seal certifications, people can't work easily interprovincially.

I wonder if you can expand on that a bit, on what opportunities there are and how right now we are uncompetitive, perhaps.

[Ralph Suppa]

I'll deal with the regulatory question, and I'll then defer to Tania on the Red Seal question.

We were part of the Canadian Free Trade Agreement in terms of provincial jurisdictions. For example, the 2020 national plumbing code was just released this year. Prior to that, each province was not adopting it at the same time.

Under the auspices of the new Canadian Free Trade Agreement, each province will supposedly be adopting it within a 24-month window. Then, when the 2025 code cycle comes out, it will be adopted within an 18-month window.

The challenge we have right now is that not everybody is on the same page. It's further compounded when you have municipalities in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto creating regulations that sometimes differ from the provincial guidelines, making it more complicated for manufacturers to know what products to ship into what jurisdiction. Then, if you're a wholesale distributor, you have to carry dual inventory to make sure you meet that demand.

That's the issue when we talk about fragmentation. We're not in sync. We'd like to see more engagement of industry when government develops these types of policies, because we want to bring some practical solutions that not only keep our businesses afloat and competitive but also ensure that we're meeting proper guidelines as we go across the country.

In terms of the Red Seal, I know Tania has been working closely on that, and I'm sure she can address that as well.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Can I interject really quickly, before we do that?

[Ralph Suppa]

Yes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Are you saying there should be more consultation with industry?

[Ralph Suppa]

Yes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

We'll go to the other witness to quickly talk about Red Seal.

[Tania Johnston]

Thanks, Ralph.

To be honest with you, I haven't worked that much with the Red Seal program. I know, similar to what Ralph was telling you, that they are working on breaking down the barriers so that the trades can move from province to province. I don't have specific details on that, but I can get that for you.

I'm sorry about that.

[Ralph Suppa]

I'll weigh in very quickly to leave this question with some substance.

Our goal is to create some labour mobility. If I'm a mechanical contractor doing business in Quebec, as an example, and my workers' jobs dry up a bit, my credentials should be recognized in British Columbia as the same skill set. We're trying to work towards that. We're not there yet, but we're trying to get other provinces on the same page to recognize the credentials of apprentices and journeypeople across the country.

In fact, it's even a north-south situation. We should be able to recognize Canadians going to the States and Americans coming to Canada with the same credentials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Suppa.

We'll move to Ms. Lapointe for five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Tremblay.

Ms. Tremblay, in your comments, you mentioned that there is a need for public policy to support labour force participation for people of all ages. In order to keep people in the workplace, should flexibility be part of labour laws and codes?

In your opinion, concretely speaking, what needs to be included in the bills?

[Dr. Diane-Gabrielle Tremblay]

I can tell you that European countries are more involved in working time. France, for example, has intervened a lot in terms of the reduction and organization of working time. Belgium and the Nordic countries, such as Norway and Sweden, have also intervened in this respect. So I think that yes, there can be incentives.

Canada has had some small programs along these lines, but very few. There is a federal work-sharing program, but it applies more to periods of unemployment.

Quebec has a few small programs, including the Programme d'aménagement concerté du temps de travail, which was specifically designed to keep people employed in certain contexts.

That said, in my opinion, the role of the state, from this point of view, is not indeed to replace organizations or companies, but rather to offer incentives. Indeed, aging workers are discriminated against—this is very clear—and have difficulty returning to work. In fact, at the moment, I am working with employability organizations, with the aim of helping workers to return to work.

Some committees are for people aged 45 and over. That's a bit young to consider yourself old. So, let's talk about people who are at least 55 years old. We're very interested in people between 55 and 70.

I think that, while labour force participation rates are still relatively high in Canada compared to some countries, they are lower than in the United States, Japan or the Nordic countries. For example, in the 60 to 65 age group, and even in the 65 to 70 age group, especially in the context of high inflation or labour shortages, I think that offering various incentives, financial or otherwise, is very important. However, when you do surveys...

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have another question to ask.

[Dr. Diane-Gabrielle Tremblay]

Very well.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

My question is for Ms. Johnston.

As part of your organization's pre-budget submission in 2021, you recommended that the federal government invest in promoting skilled trades, and specifically in providing training opportunities in skilled trades for newcomers to Canada, women, indigenous people and other marginalized communities.

In terms of competing with big organizations for a small pool of skilled employees, what does that look like for small and medium-sized enterprises?

[Tania Johnston]

It is actually quite difficult for a small or medium-sized business to keep employees or the skilled trade force fully employed at all times.

Right now we're in a situation in which they're very busy with work, so they've been able to maintain those employees. In times of low employment or low construction, it is difficult for them to keep those employees on.

With regard to the investment that we've seen from the 2019-20 budget, it's a start. There is $47 million that was just contributed to the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum and the Canadian Construction Association, which will be doing lots of training and apprenticeship training and bringing on and hiring new apprentices.

That's just a start. It doesn't actually look at the mechanical contracting trade and its importance in achieving the net-zero economy.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Professor Tremblay point that aging workers are keen to mentor. Could your industry offer aging workers mentoring opportunities? Could we transition them to knowledge jobs with fewer physical demands and more flexibility?

[Tania Johnston]

Absolutely. As she was speaking today, I was thinking that is one person I'm going to have to reach out to.

Mentorship is very important in our trade. It's not only bringing on new apprentices to do the work—it takes one to five years to complete that apprenticeship—but the need to upskill those who are currently in the trade. I think that's a great opportunity, so I look forward to having conversations with Professor Tremblay.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Ms. Tremblay, I would like to ask you the same questions.

What is the impact of labour shortages in general and, in particular, the skilled labour shortage on small businesses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

We may have a chance to come back to this at the end of the session. I now give the floor to Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two minutes and thirty seconds.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question was originally for Ms. Tremblay, but I will take advantage of Mr. Caron's presence to continue with him.

Mr. Caron, I would like you to tell us more about the labour needs in our farms and all the paperwork they have to deal with right now, instead of being on the land and doing what they do best, which is agricultural production.

[Martin Caron]

Thank you for your question.

It is certainly true that the labour shortage is creating a lot of uncertainty at the moment. Indeed, despite the steps we are taking, we are not sure that we will be able to get the number of workers needed. That is why one of the elements we want to put in place is a guarantee. Let me explain. As agricultural producers, if we have a service contract with workers, we must ensure that these workers who come here will remain in the agricultural field as agricultural workers. When you expect to need 20 workers to do the spring planting and harvesting, but only 10 come in, that really hurts productivity. So the profitability of businesses is compromised very quickly. We thus need to provide some security in this regard, with safeguards. As I mentioned earlier, it's very important that, as responsible organizations, we show respect to these workers.

Maybe we need to go a little bit further, too, because there's a seasonal aspect that's asking a lot of us. Maple products, for example, are noble products and Canada is the place in the world where more than 70% of maple products are generated. This is still important. We therefore need workers who come on a seasonal basis to do these activities. Then, quite often, these same workers can contribute to the work of vegetable producers, among others.

So we need to be flexible. All members of this committee need to understand that this labour shortage will not just last a year or two. The government can see the trend that is developing and with the low unemployment rate, it will last until 2030 or 2032.

Simultaneously, we have to support the workers and we have to look at the productivity of our agricultural businesses. When I talk about productivity, I'm talking about new technologies that could allow us to reduce the impact of labour shortages.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I conclude that you need flexibility, especially between companies. A worker could, as needed, work from one company to another. As the security screening is already done, the renewal should be able to be done automatically to avoid starting the whole process again each time.

Mr. Chair, do I have time to ask Ms. Tremblay a question?