Industry Committee on June 10th, 2022

[Sara Anghel]

Okay.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

My next line of questions is for Dr. Tremblay.

Again, we are doing this study to look at competitiveness. With competing jurisdictions, in response to the labour shortage, what are they doing to address the labour shortage and for talent retention? What do you hear are some of the good practices from those jurisdictions?

[Dr. Diane-Gabrielle Tremblay]

Do you mean internationally, from other countries?

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Yes, comparable.

[Dr. Diane-Gabrielle Tremblay]

Well, there's interesting data. If we look at Europe, a certain number of European countries had very low participation rates. I'd mention particularly Finland, Belgium and France. Of course, as in Canada, at some time there was high unemployment, and governments even put in place some policies to push people out of the labour market. Of course, when you develop those policies, then people get used to them and, well, just consider that it's normal and that retirement is a great gift that they have to take.

What is interesting is that a lot of these countries have gone back, obviously, on these policies, because they don't have the same issues. The case of Finland is particularly interesting. It did a lot of, I guess you could say, publicity, promotion or putting out information against discrimination. Actually, in Quebec, at the moment I'm working with a group that has the same type of...not policy, but a program, or publicity, if you want. It is called la compétence n'a pas d'âge, or “You're competent at all ages”, and possibly even more as you grow older, in some cases.

The idea in Finland was really very interesting. Their participation rate had really gone down, and it came up again. France has a certain number of programs for seniors. However, I don't consider that they're doing very, very well. I think there's a lot of discrimination and ageism in French society. It's very difficult, unfortunately, for young people to get into the labour market in France. However, when you're pushed out of it, it's very difficult to get back in.

I think what is really important is to develop policies to get back into the labour market. Somebody was mentioning previously—I think it was Monsieur Perreault—the fiscal dimension. Clearly, in the surveys we have done—and eventually I can also give you access to these different surveys, particularly two very recent surveys we've just done in January and another one that is going to be coming out now—with employers and employees, retirees are not so interested. Half of them might be interested in coming back into the labour market, but they will be interested precisely under the conditions that I mentioned: flexibility in working hours, reduced working hours, eventually a four-day workweek, maybe not working all year long. For them, especially—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's great, Dr. Tremblay. Could you submit those surveys you mentioned to the committee later on, and also the project you're currently working on in Quebec?

[Dr. Diane-Gabrielle Tremblay]

Yes, definitely.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

When I introduced the motion asking that we address the labour shortage, one of the reasons I did it was because representatives of the Table Métal Abitibi‑Ouest had struck a chord with me. I commend the leadership of Patrick Perreault, who made it possible for the businesses to join forces in the regional county municipality of Abitibi‑Ouest. Instead of competing with each other, these businesses in the same sector came together to find solutions, and they are active. Having visited most of these businesses and factories, I can tell you that they are in solution mode.

Then again, solutions aren't easy to come by in Abitibi‑Ouest.

Thank you, Mr. Perreault, for the picture you painted today of the impact of the labour shortage.

What would help you secure success for your company? What can the federal government do in the short term?

[Patrick Perreault]

Here are the four main thrusts that could help us in the short term.

First, bringing in foreign workers is a very attractive solution that would help us gain access to skills and experience no longer available in the current job market.

To reduce the wait times for this process, the government could do away with labour market impact assessments (LMIAs) for trades experiencing labour shortages. There would have to be some conditions, and they wouldn't eliminate LMIAs for all trades, but they could at least do it for the trades facing labour shortages.

Second, there's the issue of the costs associated with this whole process. Tax credit or other programs could help offset part of the costs associated with government documents or other costs that businesses must cover to manage these records. That would be a big help for small and medium-sized businesses.

Third, we have limited resources available to get moving on this. We've realized that there are not many Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada officers in Quebec. That translates into long wait times. Even so, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada staff do good work, and they transfer files to other provinces. However, the fact that Quebec has two levels of government causes some problems because the other provinces don't apply the same rules as Quebec. The immigration officers are not aware of the rules, which makes processing times much longer.

Fourth, a digital solution should be found to allow web-based file tracking at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. Currently, if you want to follow up, you need to call Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, but you can't speak directly with someone. You have to leave a message and wait for an employee to call you back within a certain amount of time, usually about 24 hours. However, you never know when that individual will call you back and, therefore, someone has to be available at all times to take the call. If you miss the call, you have to call back and go through the process all over again.

These four solutions could be put forward in the short term.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You really experienced that. A business experienced that, and you come to realize that it's costly, it takes too long, and it's a tall order. People don't always clearly understand what it is the federal government wants from them, and the federal government doesn't know any better than businesses do, and that has consequences.

You also expressed concern that people might not live in your area and only travel there to work. That would impact businesses and the regional economy. I'd like you to tell us more about it.

What are the consequences when workers don't live in the area?

[Patrick Perreault]

If it happens in Abitibi‑Ouest or elsewhere in Canada, the regional economy could move somewhere else in Quebec or Canada. If people do not live there, they inevitably will rent small apartments and they won't spend much money in the area, and that will lead to fewer government services. By that I mean hospitals, schools and all the rest.

It will also cause regional businesses to shut down, because it would create even more competition in the regions. That would increase conditions for workers and could lead to business closures and make regional businesses less competitive.

Those are our four main areas of concern.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Perreault.

Mr. Caron, first, I want to thank you for being here.

The issue of agricultural producers is a sensitive one, particularly in Abitibi‑Témiscamingue. I once worked at the Union des producteurs agricoles before I got into politics, and people didn't use foreign workers in Abitibi‑Témiscamingue back then, or at least not very many. Now it's a must.

Can you tell us about the labour shortage in the farming sector and how farmers have been frustrated with the temporary foreign workers program?

[Martin Caron]

Yes. Thank you for your question.

To paint a current picture of the labour shortage, I should mention that a third of the jobs created in the farming sector are held by temporary foreign workers. It's a third in Quebec, and also a third in Canada. Therefore, it's important that programs be flexible and well adapted to the needs of the farming community.

The same thing goes for LMIAs. They should be valid for three to five years. As producers, we're asked to be efficient and productive. So we're asking the same of the government, because we need that efficiency, especially when you think about the challenges we're facing right now, with inflation.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

My time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you for your discipline, Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Masse, you have the floor.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

I'm going to go back to the luxury tax issue, because we haven't had a lot of discussion on it. I don't like the luxury tax, personally. It's a regressive tax, similar to the GST/HST. Also, I think it blinds people to purchasing issues, because they get more emotional about it.

What I would like to know is how many orders have been cancelled and what are dealers doing in terms of down payments? Are they keeping the down payments on those purchases, or are they taking the down payments from consumers who were going to purchase?

You are identifying that there have been a lot of cancellations, so I'd like to know that, because that's one of the consumer issues I've been dealing with.

[Sara Anghel]

It's probably a mix of things. Because there was such a long pause after the tax was first brought up in budget 2021 and we weren't really sure when implementation was going to happen, I think a lot of people got cold feet. There are not necessarily deposits. They just decided not to purchase.

Orders that were placed prior to December 2021 are protected, so there's a bit of space there, but basically, what's happening is the consumers are not coming, and with supply chain disruptions, there's less inventory at the dealer's showroom. There hasn't been a boat show in two years, because of the pandemic and now supply chain issues.

I'd have to go back and ask a lot of individual dealers how things are happening, but what we're seeing is that some of them have already started laying off people, because there are no orders being placed.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thanks. That's a fair answer. I don't want you to do that, because that's just more work.

My point in all of this is who's really affected. It's the students and employees at the base level, because the consumers who are affected by this will either make other decisions, rational or irrational, because often....

I'm right here by the border. You can try to go over there and think you're going to get a deal, and it won't turn out to be the deal you want. You have warranty issues and all kinds of different problems that are unimaginable, and you can really do yourself more harm than good, just because of spite. You have dealer-owners, who will only reap in the sales, if there were down payments made, and there's no real cost for them there.

What you have is a slowing of sales to younger people, and those who are on the shop floor and so forth are the ones who really feel the hit of all of this. I wanted to raise that point, because this issue has gotten a lot of attention, and I don't think it's good.

Now I can move to Mr. Caron.

With regard to the temporary foreign workers, my area also has a lot of temporary foreign workers. There are serious problems with the industry with regard to housing, abuse and worker treatment.

If you want to have extensions of contracts and agreements, how do you deal with that? I've seen it at the front door here so many times, especially with Mexican, Jamaican and other temporary foreign workers who have been subjected to poor conditions during COVID. Even prior to that, there have been well-documented cases of abuse.

What's the industry willing to do to increase its protection of workers? There's clearly a need for workers, because the industry doesn't pay a wage that makes Canadians want to participate, and there are some skills advantages that we get too. There's a balance in all this.

What's the industry willing to do to step up its game?

[Martin Caron]

Thank you for your question.

At the outset, I must mention that such cases are not acceptable. Even we, as an organization, will denounce them.

In most cases, I think that we, the agricultural producers, among others, would benefit from training programs and support measures to sustain the workers. There are even networks in place, like the Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec, RATTMAQ, the assistance networks for migrant workers in Quebec, for example. So we work with these groups to provide support, because the need really exists, as you mentioned.

On the structural side, changes have been put in place that have allowed for agreement between the provincial and federal governments on the new requirements. I think people are realizing that accommodations and adaptations need to be made. It's essential for these workers.

In addition, perhaps permanent immigration should be considered, in many cases. These people are much more than employees. They are people who have great expertise and contribute enormously to our businesses. They are part of the family.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's a fair answer. I always thought there should be more support to allow those individuals who want it to stay and become permanent citizens in Canada, because they now have new relationships and familiarity with the community, and are building their families. Is that something that is supported by your organization?

[Martin Caron]

Yes, absolutely.

That's one of the things we're pushing for, because we're already seeing people wanting to move to the country with their families. We are very much in favour of that. In terms of accompanying them, the best way to do that is to respect them as we respect Canadian workers.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Gray, you have the floor for five minutes.