Evidence of meeting #27 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was luxury.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I thank you and commend your generosity.
Ms. Tremblay, you have presented many solutions, including flexibility and mentoring by experienced workers. That's 75,000 additional workers who could help alleviate the labour shortage.
I hear a lot about the tax issue; people don't want to work for nothing. How could we do something about that?
You have quite a bit of experience observing situations globally. What could we do about taxation or direct income for experienced workers?
Professor, School of Business Administration, Université TÉLUQ, As an Individual
We have already started to implement measures. For example, we don't tax additional income as much. Indeed, when people think that as soon as they make a dollar, that dollar goes away, that's a major impediment and constraint.
I think we recognize that aspect. Other older workers tell us that they don't want to be paid less than others. Some people bring up this idea that they could be paid less because they already have income, because they have a pension plan and so on.
On the other hand, I really place the emphasis elsewhere. A lot of people have a pension plan. When these people leave at 60, you ask them why they retire and they say it's because they can afford it because of their good pension plan.
When asked what would bring them back into the workforce, they tell us about flexible hours and a great work environment. Many of them also tell us that they want to continue learning and passing on knowledge. This is really a determining factor.
I think these are conditions that can be put in place quite easily in workplaces. However, it does require well thought-out human resource management and work organization. Contrary to what is sometimes believed, these people do not particularly need special accommodation. They do not ask for that. They do, however, want to be able to enjoy the last years of their lives for leisure or other activities.
As I mentioned, in an organization it is difficult to offer things to one group and not another. In fact, parents of young children also want working time arrangements. Young people also want time to travel, to do sports, and so on. So there needs to be a policy of flexible and reduced working hours in organizations to meet the needs of different groups.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Ms. Tremblay.
Mr. Masse now has the floor for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Johnston and Professor Tremblay, the skilled trades issue is really important, especially getting women involved in the skilled trades. Parliament just referred Bill C-241, from the member for Essex, to committee. He's my neighbour. The bill is for a tax credit for skilled tradespeople who have to travel further distances. Where I'm from in Windsor, Ontario, oftentimes our skilled tradespeople have gone to Alberta or other places, and it's added a bit of a cushion in terms of expenses, etc.
I wonder what your opinion is on this bill, because it will go to a committee. I'd like to see it passed. It's another bit of a bump for those who have to deal with travel costs, especially for young women involved. There are extra costs that they have in such a profession, and they're often still the primary care person for their children.
Ms. Johnston and Professor Tremblay, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
Professor, School of Business Administration, Université TÉLUQ, As an Individual
I think that's a huge challenge. I had a woman at my house recently who mentioned all the difficult challenges that she went through in terms of discrimination and everything. I have also worked on women in the IT sector, so I have worked on various sectors in which women are in the minority.
There are a certain number of things that need to be done to bring women into these various sectors—trades and others—and yes, definitely, what you're mentioning could be a plus. Women are definitely still the primary caregivers, and a lot of women are alone with children, so the financial aspect is hugely important for a lot of women who don't necessarily have very high wages.
Then again, all the issues of work-life balance—as much as you can support this aspect—like day care, for example, are hugely important. It's true that as long as we don't have sufficient, high-quality day care for all women throughout Canada, it's difficult for a certain number of women, especially the low-paid ones, to get into and to stay in the labour market.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
That's a good point, because even though there is finally some movement on day care now, it's still province by province, but the trades position often requires you to travel from province to province. If you have a dependent, that can be very stressful, because you don't know about the quality of the day care. Also, you may sometimes want to leave the dependent behind. If you had a better system in place, you could bring the dependent with you, especially for short periods of time, if you knew there was consistency in care.
Professor, School of Business Administration, Université TÉLUQ, As an Individual
We're talking about children.
Professor, School of Business Administration, Université TÉLUQ, As an Individual
I'm just going to complete on this and let it go to the other witness after.
We think of children, but also a lot of women take care of aging parents and aging spouses, and I think we're not doing so much on that in Canada. Companies—we did a survey on that—are more and more conscious of their responsibility towards children, but not so much towards other dependants. That's also important in your case, I think.
Liberal
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Through you, I'm going to start with Mr. Suppa.
When we talk about shortages in your industry right now, how many jobs do you need to fill the industry, and what is the current dollar amount of that worker shortage in your industry?
President and General Manager, Canadian Institute of Plumbing and Heating
Are we talking skilled labour here?
President and General Manager, Canadian Institute of Plumbing and Heating
I'll start because I represent more of the manufacturers and distributors of the products that we're talking about, but Tania can also weigh into that.
I believe the wages are in the $25 per hour range, if I'm not mistaken, on the apprenticeship side, and the amount goes up in terms of the years of service as a journeyperson and then as an actual mechanical contractor.
The sector is changing dramatically. I don't know the actual number. I think Tania brought it up as part of her opening statement as part of the workforce, so I'm not going to—
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Maybe I can get a little more specific then. You talked about, in your joint submission to the natural resources committee, one in five workers retiring in the next five years. Is there a shortage right now that you know of in your industry?
President and General Manager, Canadian Institute of Plumbing and Heating
On the skilled trades side, I'll defer to Tania, because she has a better grasp on that one.
Conservative
Chief Executive Officer, Mechanical Contractors Association of Canada
I mentioned in my statement that one in five will retire in the next five years. They're also looking at 18% retirees by the year 2030, which estimates to around 260,000 skilled tradespeople who will be retiring by 2030, and there's already that skill shortage.
Could you repeat the first part of your question again?
Chief Executive Officer, Mechanical Contractors Association of Canada
That varies by province. Each province negotiates its own trade agreements.
In Ontario they just recently ratified theirs, and I think it's closer to that $50 to $70 range, depending on your years of service—apprenticeship, journeyperson—and the classification that you're in.
It does vary by province.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Specifically, what do your industries need from the federal government in order to fill those skills shortages right now?
Chief Executive Officer, Mechanical Contractors Association of Canada
There are a few things we need.
One of them is, first of all, to address marketing around the skilled trades. Right now it has a negative impact. If you look at Europe, skilled trades are considered a high-class position, and then, for some reason, when we translated it over to the North American market it looks like it's a dirty job and not one that has a lot of potential, which is completely wrong.
If you look at the salaries of a skilled tradesperson versus a new lawyer even, their salaries are quite equal, minus the student loans and whatnot, so I think we just have to change that marketing aspect of the skilled trades and the potential that it involves.
There are a lot of technical aspects to the mechanical contracting trade as well. If you're not interested in getting your hands dirty, there are all kinds of new technologies and office work, project management work or estimating work that is quite attractive as well.
Marketing would be one, I think.
The second one is, of course, apprenticeship funding for bringing in more apprentices to the industry.
Third is to take a look at what it's going to take for us to reach the net-zero capacity that the government wants us to reach, in terms of whether we are ready to reach that and what we can do to upskill those potential employees.
I think we need to understand exactly where we need to be and what we need to do to get there.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you very much.
Professor Tremblay, we have a shortage of a million jobs in Canada. We're missing a million jobs, and we have to look at a lot of different reasons.
From your perspective, what do we need to do to fill the majority of those jobs in the next year or two?