Evidence of meeting #37 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was saskatchewan.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Amarjeet Sohi  Mayor, City of Edmonton
Justine Ness  President and Chief Operating Officer, Safety First, As an Individual
Meaghan Seagrave  Executive Director, Bioindustrial Innovation Canada
Bill Bewick  Executive Director, Fairness Alberta
Raymond Orb  President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Catherine Brownlee  President, Alberta Enterprise Group

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Fairness Alberta

Bill Bewick

I hope it's not around in 12 months, but the fact is that Europe is building LNG reception plants right now because they know that's the future they need, both as a cleaner source than coal and to help make their variable or intermittent renewable sources more reliable. Gas is great, because you can turn it right on as soon as the wind dies or the sun goes down. That's why they call it green energy.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You say that 60% of Quebeckers support LNG exports. What is your source?

Before last Monday's election, the Coalition Avenir Québec government rejected GNL Québec's proposal. Were you surprised that Quebeckers re‑elected that government, which won 70% of the seats? That means Quebeckers support that environmental measure.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Fairness Alberta

Bill Bewick

I think the platform of the CAQ was much broader than just that. I'm assuming they got elected for many different reasons, and it's always dangerous to put one specific platform commitment as the reason for support.

I hope they take a hard look at the possibilities Canada can have in helping the world, both in humanitarian and environmental aspects, and realize that Quebec could be a major player with its own natural gas reserves and could create a lot of jobs and prosperity for Quebec.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you for answering with such sincerity.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Cannings, you have the floor for six minutes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Sohi. It's good to see you again, Mr. Sohi. I think the last time I saw you before committee was in natural resources. Mrs. Stubbs was there too, so it's a bit like old times.

Thank you for bringing up the topic of climate adaptation. We have had a series of serious weather events in Canada. Hurricane Fiona hit the Atlantic provinces, with damages that will probably end up in the billion-dollar range or more. We had a massive derecho thunderstorm in the spring, tracked from Windsor to Quebec City, which caused similar amounts in damages. I'm from British Columbia, where we had a horrific summer last year, with a heat dome that killed over 600 people and fires that destroyed towns, etc.

There's a brand new report out recently from the Canadian Climate Institute that really goes in depth on the financial impact of climate change on Canada. Just in the short term, in 2025, they're predicting that we'll add $25 billion of extra costs to the Canadian economy, and that will rise to $100 billion annually by 2050.

It all comes down to the fact that we have to get serious about climate adaptation. We're living this right now.

You mentioned what Edmonton is doing. Could you expand on what the City of Edmonton is doing, and what kind of help they're getting from other levels of government? Right now, I think the federal government is woefully inadequately funding climate adaptation to help communities like yours and smaller communities, like the ones mentioned in Saskatchewan.

4:25 p.m.

Mayor, City of Edmonton

Amarjeet Sohi

First of all, it's nice to see all of you.

I really appreciate your question. Not only are we going to lose our GDP because of the impact of climate change, but there's also an added pressure on local governments to pay for the adaptation cost of increased flooding, for example. Our city will need close to $1.6 billion in additional resources to upgrade the drainage and stormwater infrastructure over the next number of years.

I believe the federal government is serious about being net-zero by 2050, but I also believe that the federal government will not be able to achieve that if municipal governments are not seen as partners, because that's where the emissions are. Emissions are in municipalities: 30% of a city's emissions are in transportation, and another 20% are in buildings.

If you are not greening municipal infrastructure, and if you are not helping to convert old buildings into better and more efficient buildings by retrofitting them to be more energy-efficient, the federal government will never meet that target. We can all talk about it, but I think it's very important for the federal government to see municipalities as equal partners and to work directly with us in implementing some of those choices and strategies that will help to reduce emissions and create jobs.

I'll give you an example. We have a very ambitious plan of retrofitting homes, commercial buildings and industrial buildings, but we need close to $100 million of annual investment in order to do that. We need to facilitate investment from the private sector and the public sector. We cannot do that on our own, so that's why it is important that clause 2 include municipalities as partners, so that we are given better tools in order to achieve those targets.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you.

You were also talking about transit investments. You mentioned buses. I wonder if you could perhaps expand on the bus story.

4:30 p.m.

Mayor, City of Edmonton

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

For instance, are those buses being made by New Flyer in Winnipeg? What sorts of jobs are they creating there? What sorts of impacts will they have in cities across Canada?

4:30 p.m.

Mayor, City of Edmonton

Amarjeet Sohi

We have close to 700 buses. We converted about 60 of them into electric buses with support from the federal government, but we have a long way to go. They are New Flyer buses. Some are manufactured in Canada. Some are manufactured in the U.S. We are currently testing two hydrogen buses that are made by New Flyer, but unfortunately they are built in the U.S. We were talking to New Flyer when they were here last week, and if we are able to transition and to do it quickly, they will start manufacturing those buses right here in Canada in their existing plants, which are local jobs.

Retrofit jobs are local jobs as well. These are jobs for plumbers. These are jobs for insulation inspectors, for roofers and for installing solar panels and everything else. These are all local jobs that we can create by investing in the local economy and the greening of our infrastructure to help us achieve those targets.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

How are you—

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Mr. Cannings, I'm sorry. Your time is up.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you, Mr. Sohi.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Before going to the second round of questions, we have the pleasure of having with us Catherine Brownlee from Alberta Enterprise Group, who has just joined us in committee.

Welcome. I will cede the floor to you for five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we'll return to questions.

October 6th, 2022 / 4:30 p.m.

Catherine Brownlee President, Alberta Enterprise Group

Thank you.

Greetings. I am Catherine Brownlee. I was raised on a farm in central Alberta, guided by parents who strived to ensure safety for their children while instilling the belief that serving and supporting others would contribute to a strong economy and grow a robust community. As a member of Alberta Enterprise Group, or AEG, for more than six years, and now the president, I can attest that my parents’ philosophy and traditional mindset holds true today.

As a leader of AEG, I wish to introduce, demonstrate and underscore the efforts and successes that we as a collective entity, combined with Alberta as a whole, have accomplished locally and on the world stage. I am proud to state that AEG members employ more than 150,000 Albertans and generate billions in economic activity each year.

The AEG formed in 2007, when a group of business leaders banded together to create an ambitious new business advocacy organization striving to make Alberta a better place to live and do business while generating prosperity for all Albertans. We inform public policy-makers on complex and challenging issues facing the province and the country by stimulating and guiding the business climate and subsequently perpetuating real and necessary changes, the value of which benefits the entire nation and the globe.

As a province, Alberta is on the leading edge of some of the most influential and beneficial programs designed to minimize the grave effects of climate change while restoring confidence to local and global markets, and primarily to Albertans. For example, over the past three years, Alberta has invested over $1 billion from the technology innovation and emissions reduction fund to support clean technology development and innovation. Alberta is on course to fully transition away from coal-powered electricity by the end of 2023, seven years ahead of the federal target. In fact, as of January 1, 2020, the Alberta emissions offset system has enabled oil and gas operators to voluntarily switch to low- or zero-emitting devices that will result in reductions of almost two megatons of CO2 equivalent.

Advocating for issues that significantly impact the current and future economic climate of our province is a challenge that few have embraced. As a small trading jurisdiction, but geographically in the heart of the matter, Alberta must persevere as an active player on the national and international stage. The best way to maintain our competitive position is to build bridges to new markets, to welcome those wanting to invest, and to be active and present wherever Alberta’s interests are in play. An example is the baseline and reduction opportunity assessment program, which provides $10 million in funding to support small and medium-sized oil and gas operators to conduct detailed assessments of methane reduction opportunities and fugitive emissions.

As a result of technological innovation, Alberta's oil sands producers have reduced emissions per barrel by 36% since 2000, 22% over the past decade, with leading producers on track to another 16% to 23% cost reduction over the next 10 years. New methane regulations set a target to reduce emissions by 45% by 2025.

AEG has delivered the Alberta business story to thousands of influencers and decision-makers at all levels of government. Our outreach missions to Washington, Ottawa, Montreal and Switzerland continue to broadcast the value of Alberta business to the world. With this comes education and sound leadership.

Regarding inactive and orphaned sites, Alberta established the site rehab program using $1 billion of federal COVID-19 funds designed specifically to reduce insolvencies within the oil field service sector while generating employment to a broad scale of professionals. This past spring and summer, Alberta made major adjustments to the levies and new policies on mandatory closer targets.

As an organization, AEG has an extensive track record of promoting the province as an investment destination, telling the Alberta story and building networks of support for increased economic development and co-operation. We remain on the front of all matters of business and economy for Alberta. We are clearly Alberta's most powerful and fully engaged business network.

As I hope I have outlined to this committee, Alberta businesses are on the cutting edge of technological innovation, emissions reduction, and green innovation. Given that Alberta is already a leader in this field, it does cause us to wonder as business leaders what the positive impact would be of another Ottawa-based framework, as proposed in this bill.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Ms. Brownlee.

We'll now to move to MP Steinley, for five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Set aside for a second the fact that this bill is an “Ottawa knows best” approach to a blanket solution to three very different provinces, which they are calling “the Prairies”, lumping everyone in together.

When the sponsor of the bill, Mr. Carr, was here at committee a while ago, he was asked if he consulted with any provincial governments or municipal governments before he put this bill forward.

My question is for the president of SARM, Mr. Orb. It's good to see you. Did you have any consultations with the federal government before this bill was brought forward to the committee and the House of Commons?

4:35 p.m.

President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities

Raymond Orb

Thanks for the question.

No, Mr. Steinley, we didn't have any contact with Mr. Carr. I can say that I've met Mr. Carr on several occasions, and I have a lot of respect for him, but he did not consult with us on this bill.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

From the opposition's point of view, that's a very big concern. First and foremost is the fact of what this bill is going to do, in effect, in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. No one in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba was consulted before this bill was brought forward, which is very alarming.

I would like to make a second point. My friend from the Bloc was saying that oil is oil. I'd love to hear Justine Ness's comment on that, because I don't believe oil is oil. I believe Canadian oil is more ethically produced and more environmentally friendly. I believe our oil is better for Canadians, because it actually gets money back into our economy.

I'd like to hear a comment from Justine about “oil is oil”.

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Operating Officer, Safety First, As an Individual

Justine Ness

I absolutely agree. Supporting our local economy, our Canadian economy, over sourcing it from outside, and then trucking it in or shipping it in, is obviously a much better choice in keeping our local industry thriving. I do believe that it is a cleaner source to provide it within and support our own country, as opposed to bringing it from across the seas.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Thank you very much. I couldn't agree more.

If you follow the environmental footprint of oil that is brought into Canada from Saudi Arabia, Russia or other jurisdictions, that environmental and carbon footprint would far outpace anything that's done in Saskatchewan with Canadian environmental standards, plus our workers are treated much better. We'll always stand up for the hard-working men and women in the oil and gas sector. As Conservatives, that's something we are very proud of.

I want to go back to the conversation between my friend Nathaniel Erskine-Smith and Bill Bewick. That was an interesting conversation where you could really look at an easterner's and a westerner's point of view. I'd like to have Mr. Bewick finish his comments about the fact that net zero is a very ambitious goal in Canada.

What does it mean if all other jurisdictions, including some of the bigger polluting jurisdictions like India, China, Russia, and right now America, are not having the same focus on net zero as Canada? Aren't we just cutting off our nose to spite our face?

4:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Fairness Alberta

Bill Bewick

I understand the value of being a world leader, but if nobody is following, then you're imposing all these costs on yourself while none of your competitors, and none of the much larger emission countries, are doing much about it.

I notice the U.S. has decided it is definitely not doing a carbon tax, so that should send a message to us about whether that's the right way to go for Canada. As you said, Asia.... It's not necessarily sinister. They legitimately have a billion people in China and a billion people in India. Hundreds of millions of those people are trying to have a better life, which includes some of the things we take for granted. They just want a kind of middle-class existence like us, and that takes energy.

Right now, there's no alternative for them that is adequate, and there's nothing as efficient and effective as oil and gas. The one they're turning to is coal. That's not exactly the solution we would all be looking for, I don't think. Instead, we should be the foremost provider of those energy sources for them, keeping in mind that it's good to lead by a little bit, but once you lead too far out, you're basically leading a parade by yourself.

We need to take a dose of reality and keep our ambitions, goals and targets in line with what the big countries in the world are doing.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Thank you very much.

Yes, sometimes one-car parades are very lonely situations. I think that's where the federal government is, at this point.

I'll end with this. The fact is that Canadians want to have Canadian oil in their vehicles. They want to have that environmentally friendly oil that actually helps our hard-working men and women in the oil and gas sector.

Mr. Orb hit on the fact that our Canadian agriculture is the most environmentally friendly in the country, as well. One thing that's very disappointing in this bill is.... They mention a bunch of different ministers in this piece of legislation, but they don't mention the agriculture ministers from Saskatchewan, Alberta or Manitoba. When I saw that, it was a very big disappointment for me, because agriculture should always be at the forefront when we're talking about western Canada—Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. It was totally missed in this bill.

Those are some of the reasons why I don't think we can let this bill proceed. It's not going to reach the targets and make the country greener. It's just going to hurt us in the long run.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Steinley.

We'll turn back to Mr. Erskine-Smith for five minutes.